dancing to kendrick lamar while the earth shook

In this episode, we chop it up with Kiki Jordan, a renowned midwife based in California. Kiki lends her expertise to our discussion on the radical aspects of home birthing, set against the formidable backdrop of the medical-industrial complex. We explore how Black Autonomous Birthing Communities (BABCs) provide valuable insights for rethinking our transition from schooling to holistic education. Kiki shares wisdom from her birthing experiences and her attempts to launch a community-grounded Wellness Center, guiding us in reimagining the concept of school abolition and its potential for transformative educational practices.

University of Illinois at Chicago Professor David Stovall, Ph.D., offers our final thoughts.

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 Stay connected: www.apocalypticeducation.org

Hosts: Tiffani Marie & Kenjus Watson

Music By: Redtone Records 

Production by: Jesse Strauss, Paxtone Records 

Sponsored By: The Institute for Regenerative Futures

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

There's a part of us that instinctively feels like, no, when something wrong is happening, you just want it to stop because you know it's wrong. Mm-Hmm. But then as you, when, when time doesn't stop, when life doesn't stop, when things just continue to go on and nobody comes in and says, Hey, hey, hey. What are you doing? That's wrong. Yeah. You go, well, maybe it was right.

Speaker 2 (00:00:18):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. If a school is going to teach your babies how to hate themselves, it must die. And your baby must live. And schooling will teach you to hate your family and your beloved, because they have a different way of being in the world than schooling must die. So you can live.

Speaker 3 (00:00:39):

You are listening to the Apocalyptic Education Podcast. I'm your host, Tiffany Marie. And a little later, the good Dr. Kendrick Watson will join me for our interview segment. Join us in a final farewell to schools in hopes that we might embrace its afterlife in implications for black and other indigenous frameworks of wellness.

Speaker 2 (00:01:06):

We will embrace a apocalypse. We will embrace an unfeeling that says at education is here to bring us life.

Speaker 4 (00:01:28):

Good evening. I'm Don rather, and thank you for joining us tonight on You Can't make this up. Our story begins with a celebration of the remarkable strides black women have been making in institutions of higher learning, breaking through barriers, and establishing themselves as pivotal leaders in the educational sphere. For decades, these educators and administrators have been persistently shattering ceilings, providing not only crucial representation, but also enacting palpable changes in the direction of diversity, equity, and inclusion within higher educational establishments. Wait, excuse me. This just in the higher education community is reeling from the unexpected and tragic losses of two notable black women, both as newly elected university presidents. Michelle P. Brown of Crown University, and Dr. Cynthia t Prague of Nevada State Community College. Their sudden passings have sent shockwaves throughout academia eliciting poignant conversations around the pressures faced by bipoc women in leadership. They both died days apart. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Speaker 5 (00:02:38):

All right. All right. We are here live and alive

Speaker 5 (00:02:43):

With the one and only Kiki. Jordan, everybody. <laugh>. Hey. Hello. Thank you for welcoming me. That was an amazing introduction. <laugh>, man. We're so grateful to have you. We already did like the pre-interview earlier and we had to pause it 'cause it was, it was way too good. And you was asking us questions. I hope you come back with it and, and kind of bring some of that energy back. But to start, I think you do a better introduction of yourself than I could tell. Uh, tell folks about yourself. Who are you, where you from? How did you get to be who you are and how you are in the world? So, my name is Kiki Jordan, and I am from Berkeley. I'm from the California Bay Area. I am a community midwife. And what does that mean? It means that I use my midwifery powers poo support and heal my community.

Speaker 5 (00:03:37):

And that shows up in so many different ways beyond just providing, um, pre and postnatal and labor and delivery care. Um, right now I'm working to raise funds to bring a birth center to the city of Oakland. Yeah. And, um, I've been a midwife, excuse me, for about 18 years. And I primarily, I, not even primarily, I have always practicing out of hospital settings for sure. Yeah. I mean, for folks who, who are not aware, Kiki was me and Mary's midwife. I, and, um, you know, she was amazing. We have the one and only cashmere here because I would say a lot of it due to Kiki and her support. 'cause we went with you, we went to you. Thank you. Thank you. And then at 27 weeks Right. We found out, mere found out that there were some complications that we were gonna have to have a c-section.

Speaker 5 (00:04:29):

Yeah. And Kiki came and, and, uh, she gave us the support we needed. She hooked us up with some folks within the system, within the institution. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> who, and we were talking earlier, you know, we were supposed to have a 15 minute session with this person, and they created about two hours this person in the hospital system. Right. And the hospital. They created two hours for us to be able to kind of imagine the type of, uh, birth that we would want, given that it wasn't our ideal situation. And then, you know, Mary's still trying to have a baby at home. That was the, the, the original plan. She was committed. She was committed. She was committed up until August 13th. That's right. <laugh>. And she, she went into labor. Kiki comes to the house. We got, we got most things set up, ready to go.

Speaker 5 (00:05:20):

And then Kiki comes and she, she, she, she starts talking to me at about, I remember, was it midnight? I think so. It might've been a little later than that. And she was like, all right, you, you might need to start having that conversation. We, we are probably gonna have to go to the hospital. So, you know, we, we come to terms with what's about to happen. And Kiki is in the T-shirt and sweats, <laugh> and comes with us. That's right. To the hospital. She's with us. That's right. Every step of the way. She couldn't be in the room with us where the procedure was, but the operating room, she goes home and gets a little bit of rest. Yeah. I think, and then comes right back. Yeah. And is with us that night. Yeah. Kres born at 10:05 PM Kiki's with us till about midnight.

Speaker 5 (00:06:01):

1:00 AM Yeah. Say I say Aw. And then goes off and delivers some somebody else in our community and then comes back. Oh, wow. Thank you for remembering that. And I, I'll never forget this. Right. The type of support that we got. I mean, that's what I mean when I talk about community midwifery. It's, you know, I love to attend births. That's my favorite place to be. I like to say that that's where I shine. But really I'm needed as an advocate also connecting you to the resources Yes. That you all needed, mirror needed. You needed as a supportive partner. That's a part of my role also. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (00:06:35):

And, you know, and

Speaker 5 (00:06:36):

This, this included

Speaker 6 (00:06:37):

Aftercare. You were there totally days after you were there, weeks after you did meres wound closing ceremony.

Speaker 5 (00:06:43):

Yeah. Right. So you, you provided all these services. What brought you to this work? Right. How did you come to do this? Yeah. Thank you for asking that. It's one of my favorite stories to tell. I became a mom when I was 20. And I, I was a black conscious young woman in Berkeley. And so the people that I were, was in community with were living a more holistic life and sort of we're talking about out of hospital birth, having out of hospital birth. And I, the moment I heard about a home birth, I knew that that's what I wanted to do. My son's father and I were very committed to him catching the baby. That was a big part of our plan. And, um, I knew that I wanted to have a home birth, but I didn't know that midwives provided prenatal care. So I was going to Kaiser, which I thought was the best healthcare that I could be getting.

Speaker 5 (00:07:37):

And I was seeing a different practitioner every visit. The visits were only 15 minutes. Um, and I just ended up learning by going to the library. That's how long ago this was <laugh> that, um, that my, I could hire a midwife during the pregnancy and they could support me with prenatal care. And the first visit I had with my midwife was two hours long. And she spent so much time talking about my diet. She blew my head wide open. And my own birth experience was super transformative. And it really influenced how I parented, you know, everything that I sort of learned how I started to re-envision and unlearn and relearn the world. Um, I carried that into how I parented my son. Um, and I also felt like a lot of the young black moms that I knew were having really harmful birth experiences. And it was sort of my responsibility to share what I had experienced and what I knew, um, with more folks like me.

Speaker 7 (00:08:39):

Yeah. That's, that's a really, like, I mean, hearing the, uh, the birth story and the connection, um, I've heard it from different angles, but I haven't had a chance to like, sit with you. Yeah. Um, so what's, what's powerful for me is like how it, how it mirrors what, what was going on for my, my own partner when we were having our first child. Um, and what what really inspired us to move towards, um, connecting with, uh, a black midwife and having a home birth for our second child. And knowing, even going in, I think like, because Tiff and I do this work, and particularly was like grounded in thinking about how our health is compromised by our un unconsensual, non-consensual engagement Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> with these various systems and institutions. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> this, the fact that my partner was a black woman with a, you know, with an advanced degree.

Speaker 7 (00:09:35):

I knew that we both knew that there were still these very real possible consequences. First time we stepped into Kaiser. I mean, like, we, we were grateful and, you know, blessed to have had like a, uh, I think one of the more grounded practicing ob GYNs in Los Angeles. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, Dr. Latonya Hines. And she was committed to protecting Danielle. But our interactions with the rest of the Kaiser system, I mean, it was like basically get ready for c-section. Right. Oh, wow. And, um, and, you know, so we were prepared for and had these experiences during, as ion was coming into this world. I remember being tapped on the shoulder, you know, midway through the evening, you know, after my wife had been in labor for 16 hours or so. Like, you might need to, Hey, get ready for this and pray. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like holding space and asking others to hold space.

Speaker 7 (00:10:29):

Um, not so much because we didn't think an outcome could be possible, like what you all had, but more so, um, knowing that that wasn't what we felt was it was the way our daughter was gonna come in the world. So there was this really powerful intervention inside the space. Yeah. By a black midwife, uh, a nurse, nurse midwife who happened to be on duty. 'cause our doc, our o begon was done. Right. Her, her shift was over. Hey, hey, so we, we just add a luck, all these things that happened or these protections that happened around us because, um, you know, the, the system eats people up. And I thought, like, what would our experience have been had we not had, um, the kind of exposure to education about this if there wasn't like very, um, grounded commitments or center commitments to, to ensure, you know, uh, less, less engagement, you know? Yeah. Um, from, from the official systems. 'cause we know anti-blackness is like grounded in all this. And so I'm wondering about yourself. What, what are, what are some of the ways that you see anti-blackness have seen anti-blackness? You mentioned throughout though the, the systems of the official, uh, medical industrial complex. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or other like, mundane ways that it shows up. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:11:47):

Thank you for saying the mundane ways that it shows up. 'cause I think those are the more pressing, um, challenges that don't get talked about a lot. So we hear a lot of folks talking about the research around black women not being listened to about black women having the ability to withstand, you know, higher levels of pain. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> those beliefs sort of trickle into the care that they are getting, that kind of the biases that they face when they're working with certain providers. But what we aren't talking about is how these systems separate us from our cultural norms and familial practices that are really necessary. You need to stay connected to that in labor. Labor is a very, very vulnerable time pregnancy, but labor especially is a very, very vulnerable time. And so being separated from your family, being separated from your partner, the people that you really love and trust the most, and also, um, sort of diminishing their voice in the space is really, really significant.

Speaker 5 (00:12:48):

The other thing is that while black women have worse clinical outcomes and connected, you know, care cultural congruency between the birth and the provider is really, really essential. We probably aren't, this is hard to say, but this is just my, what I believe is the truth. We probably aren't going to see changes in those clinical outcomes in this generation, because this is from years and years of imprinting of oppression. Yeah. Generational oppression on our TNA. It's going to take a lot of time of undoing that and people getting this sort of heart-based connected care before we start to see real differences in clinical outcomes for black birthing people. I hope I explained that clearly, and I'll keep talking about it as we continue to talk. But I think that's one thing that we miss a lot. That it's important for us to have providers who will have the same language and the same cultural experience.

Speaker 5 (00:13:54):

It's gonna take a little bit of time of us building that into every birthing system before we really see the differences. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think a lot of what the two of y'all are saying connects, you know, sadly, um, to what we were finding in our work with, uh, birthing parents in, in Oregon. Right. And so, so much of it was, it was a listing campaign. It was a listing session. And you know, we talked about it in the pre-interview. A hundred percent of the parents involved had traumatic birthing experiences in hospitals. Yeah. Right. Um, from, you know, them not being able to rely on their intuition Yeah. Um, them not being listened to. Yeah. And, um, so much of what we experienced with you, Kiki right. Was the, the exact opposite. Right. So much of it was to support Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 5 (00:14:48):

<affirmative> the development, the cultivation of our, of our intuition. Right. And, and what I heard from you a lot is like your birthing practices is to support the birthing parent and family to be able to lean into that and to invite you to be a partner with me in your healthcare to, I I believe that you have the capacity to understand the care that is being offered to you, to ingest it, digest it, you know, interpret it however you need to interpret it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that you can be a part of making decisions about what we're gonna do next with your body and your baby. And I think there's still this bias around, uh, the socioeconomic condition of black folks that leaks into the perinatal care system. That doesn't just, just doesn't happen with black midwives and our clients. We come from the same economic experience. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I have been on Medi-Cal. That is why I make myself available to Mecal recipient. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Can you, so, so much of what you're doing seems radical. I think that's kind of what the term that people use. But how would you explain or describe the philosophy bet behind what you do? I have named it black autonomous birthing communities. I love it. <laugh>. But your work, like, how would you describe the philosophy behind it?

Speaker 5 (00:16:13):

Well, I love that term, black autonomous birthing communities. Um, I just think it's really simple. I think it's just traditional holistic healthcare. I think, I think it's radical because we all have accepted the hospital industrial complex as the norm. And we all be, not we all, but we have all been taught to believe that that is where safe birth happens. But it just isn't true. It isn't factually true. Um, yeah, I would call it empowering. And, and not that I empower people, but I you do walk with folks Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> through their journey to empowerment. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's an honor and a gift really. I feel really honored to be able to walk through people, walk with people through a very, very valuable and significant time in their lives. And, but so much of what, and you just named it, I think, to be very clear, you support primarily women to have home births, guests. Why? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Why, why, why home births? Why home?

Speaker 5 (00:17:26):

Why not home? Because <laugh> um, why home? Because I think that home is where you get to be the, you get to determine how the entire process unfolds. You get to lead, we shift the, um, dynamic between healthcare provider and recipient. You, there is no hierarchy anymore. We immediately develop this family-like relationship. And it's nourishing for me too. It's, it's a space where I get to, I'm working, but I'm also at the family reunion, you know? And, uh, it's just a powerful exchange. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of fear associated with this idea of relying on ourselves and our internal wisdom to bring life into the world. Um, and for me, I think a lot of it is incredibly colonial. Um, and a shift in trusting institutions run by the, the very people who harm us. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to protect us and also in, in our work to educate us.

Speaker 5 (00:18:49):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and so we were, when we were talking, you know, you were like, <laugh>, run this episode by me again. The, the connections here. And I think, you know, Kendice and I see a lot of connections between, um, the work that you do, the really powerful work that you do in supporting families to be empowered to, to do what they do, to, to step into their power. And our belief that schooling, um, should not exist because it prevents us from being able to access that power. It prevents us from being able to practice our cultural medicines to support in the healing and transformation of our communities. Um, and so I see the, the intimate connection. So, so much of our work really is invested in shifting from schooling and schools to sites of education. Yeah. And I, I definitely see, uh, what you do as a site of education as well.

Speaker 5 (00:19:49):

Absolutely. Right. Shifting from the institutionalized version of something. Yeah. There. Yep. I was just gonna say, maybe I'm jumping ahead, but I think what's really powerful about home birth midwives and some birth center midwives is, uh, or just out of hospital practicing midwives, is that most of us have chosen an educational pathway that was through an apprenticeship model. And we're working hard to hold onto that apprenticeship models, the belief that you can get quality education and training, um, through this self-directed pathway, uh, with mentorship. Um, and that is traditional midwifery. And that is traditionally how most vocations were learned, you know, and, and I, me and ultimately led to prac practice. Um, that's the pathway I chose for myself. I knew I needed to like, touch it, taste it, smell it, feel it, um, at the same time that I was doing my didactic study. I think that's the connection between the unschooling model that you guys are uhoh, uhoh, I'm sorry, abolition. This model saying, she starts saying terms, sorry, ab we're gonna start shifting our chairs. Unschooling. Excuse unschooling. Please forgive me. What is that? No, no, sorry. Say more, say more. What do you, what do you mean by that? Yeah. Well, I'm learning, I'm curious about the difference between unschooling and the abolitionist model. It's like we

Speaker 7 (00:21:22):

Need an insert or theory. Yeah. It's like we need an insert

Speaker 5 (00:21:25):

Cue to commercial <laugh>,

Speaker 7 (00:21:26):

Right? Like, yeah. We need, we need like an insert of a, like a animation, you know, sequence where someone breaks down the, the, the way that the terms

Speaker 5 (00:21:35):

Drive across

Speaker 7 (00:21:36):

The script as we, as we try to like, move back, as you were saying, right? Like, we have everything that we need. We've always had what we need to, to bring our, our, our seed into this world. Um, we have had practitioners prior to it's proceeded, I think it will exceed what we're in right now, who do that work. And so it's like we have to, we really need a, a dictionary of the folks trying to think the same way around education. Right. And I think it's because of the, the complexity of the ways that we have been so fully, uh, brought into, um, the, the frame of schooling. We ar we argue like from the fir from first contact, right? You, you're getting Educatedly Reuben folks had, uh, seven different ways beyond that of defining gender. So the very idea that, uh, I, I know you've been to Elmina, I don't know if you've been to Ghana, but like those castles that are like, you know, women men.

Speaker 7 (00:22:30):

Sure. That's the first form I think of like, you're getting educated or you getting schooled Uhhuh <affirmative>. Right? Like, whatever you were, doesn't matter. Here's what the, here's what the new is. Uhhuh <affirmative>, and that's violent, right? Uhhuh, <affirmative>, uhhuh <affirmative>. So like the resistance to that, I would say the abolition, the attempt to move away from that began with the people who were like, nah. Right. Yeah. And, and there were consequences that we've had to contend with saying no or refusing that. Yeah. And so our work, I think is one, uh, I would like to, I hope that at best it's like the breath or the kind of voice of the words of those people who were like, no. Right. With their body, with their mind. With their spirit to that. Yeah. And no, because we know better. Yeah. Right. Um, and then what, what are the other frames that come about? So, I don't know, like unschooling schooling abolitions

Speaker 5 (00:23:16):

Yeah. You about you abolition to

Speaker 7 (00:23:17):

Define these, uh, abolitionist teaching, apocalyptic education.

Speaker 5 (00:23:22):

There's a lot of terms out

Speaker 7 (00:23:23):

There. Uh, you know, to me, I'd be interested in like what, um, what those, what the differences are and how, and why those differences matter. In the same way we've talked about, you were saying, I think in the pre-interview, right? Yeah. Like this invitation from the medical industrial complex with the advent of greater, I don't think it's consciousness. I think it's like interest convergence. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> saying, all right, so now we'll allow some midwifery practice, some holistic edu health to come in. I think that's, that's kind of where we're at with education too, right? Like, some of our practices get allowed by the system, and we probably get distinguished on the extent to which we, we accept that allowance.

Speaker 5 (00:24:07):

Yes. Some of it gets allowed, and we're gonna regulate it to the degree that it's just going to mirror what we've been doing previously. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and so you see a lot of midwives resisting going into hospitals, systems resisting what we're calling integrative models. Um, right. Because it, you can't integrate into a system where you can't be equal. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, I don't know. I was saying earlier, and, and I, and this is something I'm struggling with in my current phase of my career, for many years, I was very ra more radical, very adamant about staying out of the hospital as a provider. I did understand that sometimes people needed to transfer to the hospital, but definitely not in collaboration with the hospital system. Why? Because I found it abusive. I just didn't believe that we could create, um, the kinds of transformative and empowered birth experiences that I had seen and out of hospital setting in the hospital.

Speaker 5 (00:25:12):

And, and for the most part that's true. Like all we're in the Bay area. So we, we've gotten really lucky and privileged around what's happening in the hospital system, but in, in other parts of the country, that's still very true. Um, but I do struggle. I am at this place in my career now at 40, wanting to make sure that more people have access to what I and other black midwives have to offer. I am spending more time thinking creatively about pathways to midwifery. And one of those pathways is through hospitals and community clinics, I believe. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Ooh. I, I was, I feel embarrassed saying that. That's controversial. I feel like a sellout, you know, we don't have to include

Speaker 7 (00:25:53):

It

Speaker 5 (00:25:54):

<laugh>. It's okay. Included. It's an ongoing discussion. It's okay to be honest about it. Yeah. Of course. I really wanna engage with more black and and other midwives of color, indigenous midwives about this very thing. There is no way around. Yeah. Maternity model integration,

Speaker 5 (00:26:18):

Criminalizing other midwives food. Yeah. You said more about that. Yeah. There are midwives. The more we integrate into this model, the more the standard of care, the conventional standard of care sort of seeps into how we practice and becomes the standard of care. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it is, it is a system that is hierarchical. Ours isn't, we have a lot of autonomy at this point. I get to determine whether I think it's healthy to offer my clients acupuncture and homeopathy, and whether it's been studied to death or not. If I had engaged in a conversation with my client about these practices, and they feel like they would like to try an alternative approach, we can work on that together that can start to get encroached on once we start to collaborate with hospital systems or integrate into hospital systems. And so there are many midwives out there who are, who, who would say, don't take that step. Don't go in that direction. It's going to start to limit our autonomy. Um, what that sound like, Kenzie <laugh>.

Speaker 7 (00:27:27):

Well, I know you're, you're probably thinking, I, I I don't want to, and you're throwing me like a nice, uh, softball down the middle of the plate here. Like what

Speaker 5 (00:27:34):

That sound like to you. Don't be careful integrating into this system. We understand that you might be able to access more people this way. We understand that it's black folks there. Yeah. But be careful. Yeah. When you go into this beast. Yeah. Because what that sound, look

Speaker 7 (00:27:51):

To me, that sounds like teacher preparation. That sounds like, uh, the kind of advice I got coming into, um, the work of scholarship. I, what was, when, when you were talking to me, what was coming up for me, I know we have like a grounded goal here, but what was really coming up for me was like hearing and reading more about these maroon communities who were making, uh, compromises for the sake of their sustainability. That's right. In relationship to the plantation. Plantation. So people don't know, like this is happening all over in Brazil. Yep. Jamaica, Surinam. There have always been these, these tense, tense, uh, zones of transition or turbulence that black people, our people, African people have sustained autonomy. Yep. And, uh, first very militantly and very outside. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and then there's these generations that come because look, this thing, this plantation is expanding.

Speaker 7 (00:28:48):

Yep. And our best bet of survival is to try to find a way to compromise. So they struck compromises in Jamaica. No more new, no more new escaped, uh, folks. Right? Mm-Hmm. We'll return them back to you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. That's a history that we have to contend with. We, they, they struck compromises, um, in Brazil. Right. Like, literally, will we recognize your sovereignty as long as you recognize ours? And what are the, what are the ways that we have to kind of like finagle our relationship Yeah. Uh, to do that. But eventually, right. Like as you're saying, those spaces become less and less sustainable or start to mimic or look exactly like Yeah. What they escaped.

Speaker 5 (00:29:29):

Oh, this conversation is hard because it's making me change my current entire career trajectory. <laugh> rethink my, you know. No, no, no. It's okay. It's helpful. This is not a new conversation. There are not all lots of us having these conversations. You just can't create equity when you are collaborating with the oppressor <laugh>. You know, you just can't. Um, and, and that counters, like 12 books that came out last <laugh> Do launch <laugh> <laugh>. It's true though. It's true. Listen, I'm learning. I know this to be true. And I also know that that's where my people are primarily getting care. And that's where my people feel safe. And the reason that they feel safe is because of systemic oppression and race. The reason they feel more safe in these institutions is because of systemic racism. And so that's kind of where I have to make myself available.

Speaker 5 (00:30:31):

At least that's how I feel right now. I mean, I see them as the nurse midwife that you all worked with. Yeah. Ada Flores. Can I say her name? We said it. Okay. I see them. People like Ada as the Harriet Tubman, you know, they Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> some, somebody has to be in the belly of the beast. Ooh. Um, to guide folks through. Everybody needs a guide. Everybody needs an advocate and deserves that. And somebody's gotta have the courage to do it. Yeah. Um, not forever, you know, that doesn't have to be their role forever. But I'm grateful that they're there right now. What you are experiencing or have understood about the medical system. Right. It's, there's no doubt that it is actually harmful to a much larger group of people than it is beneficial. How we make sense of it, how we support people, um, varies I think in a lot of ways.

Speaker 5 (00:31:31):

And, and the conversation also makes me think back to my grandma. And I was telling kids I had, you know, I had this conversation with her recently because once we were talking to the birthing parents in Oregon, I started getting fascinated with people's birthing stories in general. Right. And so I talked to my mom, found out I was born in a storage closet, or I talked to you about that. And she was 19 at the time, and they gave her very specific instructions about what she needed to do. She went into labor. She didn't follow them fully, so they punished her and made her wait. And, but I was born 20 minutes after we got to the hospital, so they put her in the space that they have to birth me. Wow. I, and I'm thinking back, you know, I'm talking to my grandma and I found out that she had two children at home.

Speaker 5 (00:32:20):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and one completely by herself. Uhhuh, <affirmative>. <laugh>. And so I'm on the phone just like, how come from powerful people? And then I called Kenzie right after though. 'cause she threw me a curve ball on the conversation. She was like, and then I couldn't wait till I got to California to give birth in the hospital because it was Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So she has this powerful experience. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> what I would think. You had a child on your own. Yeah. Successfully. Yeah. I would think you were like, you think you can do anything. Yeah. And she, she was excited about the hospital. Yeah. Because there's all this messaging probably at the time that she was giving birth, that that's the safest place to be, you know, if all the people in your community and the women in your community are giving birth at home, then you've known since you were a child that you're, first of all, that it's safe, but also that you are capable. So you're not in that place of shock when it happens on your own in the ha in the car. We've seen those verses in the car where people are panicked because you just know that birthing is normal. You know? It, it's a normal life event. I, I really think black people think receiving care, many black people, not all, but many black people think, and many people of color and lots of folks who are immigrants as well, that if you're going to a facility that you are receiving a superior model of care.

Speaker 7 (00:33:42):

Yeah. I think that that's like where the abolition principles that might be of through line, uh, for these different projects in education might be helpful. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Because there's this demand or this reality that even as we attempt to dismantle, however we're attempting to dismantle or infiltrate or whatever, the creation of the alternative or the remembering of, of the, of the pre, the prior Right. Has to be, uh, needs to be as much, if not more work around that to sustain what we're doing. I, I think about that in relationship to, um, how I feel like there's this link between Sacred birth that's guided by midwives, uh, up through the work that we do in education, even to what we do for our, our purpose in life. That's

Speaker 5 (00:34:25):

Right.

Speaker 7 (00:34:26):

Um, and there's interactions between all these systems that we're trying to abolish the medical system. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the jump. Yeah. 'cause we also know there's folks in our communities who get, their children get taken from the very, from the very jump because they're

Speaker 5 (00:34:39):

So, because of the healthcare choice they Right.

Speaker 7 (00:34:41):

They're like, okay, I'm, I'm working with Yeah. Your your's y'all situation. Yeah. I've seen videos online where the very same thing that with that you all were blessed and, you know, moved through in a, in a healthy way. People have their babies taken at that point. Yeah. Like, what were you, where were you at this whole time? Yep.

Speaker 5 (00:34:57):

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That's why we need more, a shameless plug, more black owned people of color owned birth centers. You know, a I hate to call it a hybrid model, but somewhere, but somewhere, a facility that people can go to where you can get that home-like experience. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, but kind of mirrors the clinical model in a way that makes people feel comfortable, safer, and supporting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that I wanna say it's safer than home, but it, but feel safer. There you go. Right. It feels safe there. The aesthetic aesthetics of safety. Yeah. And my vision is for that interdisciplinary model that I'm talking about, where you have maybe a pediatrician, body workers, doulas, midwives, chiropractors, all available in this one space so that we can have these easy, warm handoffs and people can get the wraparound care that I believe contributes to the healing experience clinically healing, but also spiritually, physically, emotionally healing. That's how we start to create new imprints, um, on our DNA on our wounds. Um, and really start to turn birth outcomes long for generations.

Speaker 7 (00:36:20):

Uh, me too. I want all too, I'm, I'm imagining like what that, that same space that that village holds the capacity for a homeschooling, you know, like some of

Speaker 5 (00:36:31):

The, oh, thank you for, for saying that because, well, we in California, so that kind of space is costly, but I do think this is a replicable model. You know, I'm calling in, nobody steal it, a perinatal wellness center. I think that this, the more we talk about it, the more we build on it. I do think this kind of f coworking perinatal wellness space or community resource space is a replicable model. And I think that most people start rethinking or, or begin their thinking about the type of parent they wanna be, how they wanna educate their children during their pregnancy journey and in community with other people who are thinking that way. So you do just, um, just informally see small home group collectives developed out of those birthing communities. You do start to see people thinking about what kind of educational model they want or curriculum model they want for their kids.

Speaker 5 (00:37:30):

That's how I learned about the unschooling movement, because a bunch of my clients came together and started unschooling. Hmm. So there is a connection, and I do think there's this, these, uh, perinatal wellness centers can be a starting point for, for, you know, educational pathways that are alternative. Yeah. I feel like the, the, what I'm calling the black autonomous birthing communities are in the same way that like prison abolition and prison abolitionists create a framework for us understanding how to look at schools and schooling. Sure. I think, you know, those birthing autonomous spaces also create this framework, because y'all have already done it. You've already created the space and it's not, it's more aligned. We were talking about this like the models of, uh, MST movement in Brazil with schools where it's not in a building. Sure. So it can't be stopped in the same way because it's you, you can't stop a movement. Sure. You can stop the infrastructure, you can shut that down. But a lot of that, we've forgotten those ways of being where the art, the medicine is in the people in the community, and not in the infrastructure. Yeah. That's beautiful. This is

Speaker 8 (00:38:41):

A different type of pipeline. Right. This is a more liberated pipeline. We're planting seeds about how we're gonna educate our

Speaker 5 (00:38:49):

Children in utero even. Yes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yes. Ex. And I think when we're talking about education, and we always diff, you know, differentiated from schooling, when you're talking about this child that's coming into the world, I think a lot of what we were, what was hitting me so hard, 'cause we, you know, there's all this prep for kindergarten and there's all, and there's so little that in education in a way that thinks about the longstanding impacts of how a child is brought into the world and how that influences the, the energy that the, the, the birthing parent and the community have to experience that the stressors and how much of that goes into that child's understanding of who they are Yeah. What they can do. Yeah. Um, and, you know, empowering births are about empowering families. Right, right. And, and what they're, and you've, you've said this about what they're capable of doing.

Speaker 5 (00:39:45):

I think it makes sense to us in most other realms. Right. We, we know we've had folks who are kidnapped and taken off to, to prisons and jails, and many of whom were falsely accused and served years. So that, you know, whether it's reform or abolition, that makes sense to a lot of us. Many folks are listening right now and they're just like, I think it sparks a lot when we talk about people's birthing experiences across the board, across race. A lot of folks are like, yeah, it was really actually traumatic for me. Hey, hey. And you, it's kind of normal. Like postpartum is often synonymous with depression. Yeah. I used to think it was the same thing. Yeah. I think when most do Yeah. And she had postpartum. She had postpartum. That's right. And they mean That's right. It was horrible. Right. Yeah. <laugh>.

Speaker 5 (00:40:30):

Right. They don't mean what we had. Right? Mm. We had supportive community bringing meals every day. Yeah. You had folks coming in and engaging in ceremony. That's right. Right, right. And honoring the, the power of who you have just graduated into. Yeah. They're not talking about that. That's right. And so, so a lot of people listening to this might say, wow. And have some type of right awakening of like, I would love to try something different. Yeah. I hope so. Our challenge is, what we have not understood is when it comes to schools Yeah. We don't often see the same relationship. We often hear people say, it was horrible and I made it,

Speaker 5 (00:41:15):

And now I'm gonna go teach there. I'm gonna do it now I wanna support other people. Yeah. To suffer less, sir, differently. It just like, just to not, you know, like, so I'm interested in like what you've heard and your stories and experiences from around that fear. Maybe 'cause you have successfully supported a number of people who have been more courageous, but like, and I, and I'm guessing that there may be some wisdom from what you're saying that we can maybe apply to families that we serve of, like, what would you say about people who are fearful of, for lack of better words, choosing themselves? Mm mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Speaker 5 (00:41:56):

Yeah. Well, I would say that our fear is a reaction or a response to the belief that there's this 50 50 chance that you're going to have a horrible outcome in your birthing experience. And that's just not true. 90% of births are normal and natural. We are all designed to come through the human body this way. And that is happening all over the world in really supported, supportive, and beautiful ways. I would also invite people to be courageous about how they really envision giving birth. And I say this to potential clients all the time. Envision how you want to welcome this new human into our human family and really be courageously wild about it. I wanna have palm trees all over the place. I wanna do it in water. I want these people there. I want it to sound, smell, and taste like this. And then work backwards and start building the team that you need to create a safe spl space for you to give birth.

Speaker 5 (00:42:57):

And you have the right to do that. You know, you absolutely have the right to do that. That the belief that we have the right to do that has been taken away from us. Um, the right to do what? The right to be courageous about your birth experience. The right to create the birth experience that you really want. A liberated birth experience, a celebratory birth experience. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, we put so much time and energy into our 21st birthday, everybody gets cranked for their 21st birthday. Nobody prepares for birth like a birthday. But you really are welcoming this new human into our world who is gonna contribute to our, all of our futures potentially. I see. Um, and that's what I would say about the fear. This fear has been fed to us. And I would ask people to be courageous about resisting that.

Speaker 5 (00:43:48):

I also think that what I saw with you and Mira that I haven't seen, I've transferred many people to the hospital over the years. I haven't always seen people invite the hospital staff to participate in their birth ceremony in the spiritual Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> ceremony or practice that you'll be implementing in the hospital space. And I think the hospital staff really, really appreciated that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like that reminded them, oh, this isn't just business as usual. We are caring for human beings. This is a celebration of a new human being. And, um, yeah. I think it was a gift that you gave them as well. Mm mm-Hmm. <affirmative> for, you know, there's, there's, sorry, I just wanna add there's fear on both sides. You know, there's fear not only of birthing people. Birthing people are not only experiencing fear care. Providers are experiencing fear. That particular system is a fear-based system. You know, you live in a constant state of anxiety while you're at work. And so you can't help but bring that into the birthing space. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 7 (00:44:53):

That's why those lights so bright. Right. The afraid of the dark <laugh>, you know, in those birthing rooms. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 5 (00:45:00):

No, go ahead. You got something on your heart?

Speaker 7 (00:45:03):

Um, no, I I I was just hearing what you were saying and about fear and thinking about something I learned from a a, a Sonoma, a South African healer who talks about so much of these systems, even what we would think of as evil is like a energy that has forgotten who it is. Mm-Hmm. And there's fear about that. Right. A fear about forgetting. And I feel like that is so, uh, infused with these spaces and I'm thinking about healing Yeah. From what these encounters have been. 'cause Tiff was saying we have trauma, um, that we all know. My mom, like my old, I'm a, I'm one of four, um, three of four of my mom's children. My oldest sister was born premature in Denver. And my mom tells me stories of like, trenching through the snow so that she could touch Micah through this, through this

Speaker 5 (00:45:55):

Kind of like

Speaker 7 (00:45:56):

Apparatus. Um, my sister Chandra, uh, was born, uh, with heart defects. She was the first, she was one years old when she had open heart surgery. And in many ways it was like this experiment in California. 'cause it had been successfully done on a baboon. Oh wow. And like maybe one other child. Wow. And no one else except for Chandra. And she lost oxygen during the period. And there were these outcomes or impacts of harm that we're still trying to understand what that all was. Myself, my mom talks about this grounded wisdom that women wound carriers don't, will, will often if they're in like points of con I learn from our doula, Cindy. Yeah. Um, that if they're in these spaces of danger, uh, they'll, they'll the body and the womb will, the person will wait Right. To have the baby. And, and my mom talks about it. That was me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I was like a month and a half after when I was supposed to be coming out. Sure. 'cause things were just simply not safe. Yeah. We have these, but I'm wondering about healing Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:46:55):

The body

Speaker 7 (00:46:56):

And what, what, what we could learn from the ways that you have or you see, um, the healing practice of those who've maybe experienced or gone through trauma or have their own birth were, came through the rites of passage in a traumatic way. Yeah. And what we could glean from our own work of healing those who have also survived schooling.

Speaker 5 (00:47:16):

Ooh. Well, the first thing I wanna say is thank you for bringing up your mom's experience, caring for your sisters. Because I think we talk about the black maternal health crisis a lot. And we all think of that as just what's happening in black women's bodies, which is absolutely significant. But we also forget that black women are caring for low birth word babies. Preterm babies. Yeah. And so spending a lot of time in the NICU, spending a lot of times separated from their babies. And there's a lot of trauma and harm there too that we're carrying in our wombs. Um, in terms of healing, I think it's what I talked about, like black women, black birthing people need to be listened to. They need to have relationships with their providers where there's cultural congruency so that they feel comfortable opening up and being a participant in their care.

Speaker 5 (00:48:12):

They need access to wraparound services, so they need a doula. And, and those, all of those things cost money individually. So we need systems where people can access all of these wraparound services in a way that they can, that they're affordable, accessible. Um, everybody should be seeing a body worker. Everybody should be, should have a doula. Everybody should have a pelvic floor physical therapist. And it's hard to afford all of that. So somehow can being creative in the ways that we make those things accessible. And if at the very least right now, we should be making people aware that those kinds of services are available and that they're being provided by black women, dynamic black women. I don't know. I'd be happy to engage in discussion about how we take those kinds of healing p that sort of wrap around the, the, the, the care recipient into the educational system. I mean, I bet in there could be an educational network or collective where children are seeing the art teacher and the music teacher and spending a lot of time outside with the recreational provider and I don't know, spending a lot of time in the garden. Like where the kind of educational experience they're getting is reflecting what they're actually gonna be doing in the world. You know, building an educational ecosystem around our children.

Speaker 5 (00:49:41):

Was it intense that most of those, um, services that you said you would suggest for healing were made into professions? Right? Mm. Where there are tests and protocol. Well, that's capitalism. Right? Right. That's that you, that you have to Right. Access and that certain people can Yeah. Yeah. But that's not where we come from. I really appreciate you saying that because I think a part of why I am at this place in my midwifery career where I'm thinking a lot about healthcare integration and how do we integrate out of hospital practicing midwives, not necessarily into hospitals, but in collaborative relationships with hospital providers, is because I need to start thinking about retire. Like, I can't just be in a completely an entrepreneur forever. Hmm. I live in a capitalist system. I have to, this has to be my profession. I can't just be the community midwife who does one birth a month in a barter exchange for somebody building my deck.

Speaker 5 (00:50:38):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. You know, I think that's how midwives were cared for in the past. Traditional midwives had some sort of exchange with other people in the community, but now we are all forced into profession. Mm. Um, which means so much of how I care for myself and my family depends on the number of people that I take care of every month. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it just isn't healthy. I, and I'm open to strategizing about ways to prevent that, you know, bring back barter systems. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> they used had a black stamp system in Frisco. Mm. It's a barter system. I mean, you bring up, and I think that's where a lot of us are. And I mean, people put their children in schools for a number of reasons, probably very little actually for education at this point, for care. So they can go to work.

Speaker 5 (00:51:27):

It's childcare care so they can go to work. Yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're naming, which I appreciate like the constraints of how do we in, you know, being in this stronghold of capitalism, how, how do we return to ancestral practices or that precede kind of the advanced forms of capitalism that, that we face today. You know? Yeah. I mean, I think we're being creative in our thoughts around the birth land, perinatal wellness center. <laugh>. Yes. Say more. Um, I think we're thinking about how this birth center or this wellness center can be sustainable based on a co-working model where people are paying rent to use the space rather than depending on only patient revenue. Mm-Hmm. I mean, that's a part of why we see the hospital system being so harmful is because they're budgeting the number of births and c-sections that they're going to do every year.

Speaker 5 (00:52:27):

And they have to, that's just the system and, and that people are employed based on that budget. But instead of just recreating that as birth centers are kind of doing, we really wanna create a birth center that is a coworking space that I said, where everybody who's there is contributing financially to the long-term sustainability of the space. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in, in, in moving toward this, you're naming a little bit, but what do you feel like are some of the biggest challenges that you're facing in implementing or launching this center? Acquiring a physical space. That's the biggest challenge is that 'cause of where we are. We're in such an expensive city. We're in such an expensive part of the country. Um, this vision is big. I'm talking about a community center, really. But I want it to be homelike. So I would really like it to be, I think all of us who are involved would really like it to be in a home.

Speaker 5 (00:53:22):

But we need parking. Yeah. We like outdoor space for the little people. Yeah. You know, there's just so many different elements that are really essential to this vision. And acquiring something like that in the city of Oakland is challenging. And I am personally very committed to it. Being in the city of Oakland. I really wanna honor, um, first of all, the fact that there just isn't a birth center in Oakland right now. A freestanding, independent birth center that is owned by a community midwives that just doesn't exist in the city of Oakland right now. So I wanna change that. And then I just wanna honor the history of diversity in blackness that was in Oakland. I think it would be really powerful to plant some strong birthing roots. Repeat the acronym that you, black autonomous birthing communities. Thank you. To establish a black autonomous birthing community in the city of Oakland, which was once a black city. Yes, Lord.

Speaker 7 (00:54:18):

Yeah. And even, you know, the, I'm, I'm imagining like collaborations or these are like, where these really, you know, imaginary and such important visioning conversations come into play. 'cause I can see a space where, um, maybe with, uh, uh, the Elone people, there's conversations around as we push the land back Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> of, of what that would mean to, to steward or to have space. Um, and even I, my mind's going in this moment, like we could build dope super adobe homes that would feel, oh,

Speaker 5 (00:54:52):

That's the, would

Speaker 7 (00:54:52):

Feel like a, uh, outside, inside

Speaker 5 (00:54:55):

Space he's trained in that, you know, that, oh, you can do the, um, cop housing or whatever it's called, those earth and dome. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (00:55:00):

And there's, there's practitioners who this would be something that's not that expensive, right? No. The houses, like everything Yeah. Housing, like everything are, are sacred. And, and, and our ancestral ways of building are not, uh, centered on capitalism. So they're inherently sure. More sustainable, safer what? Sure better for our wellness. And a place where birthing, uh, could, could always be they're reminded of its sacredness. But that those visionary conversations, I always am like, how do we contend with just like those maroons with this, this plantation that's always trying to come and undo what, um, what we've, what we've generated. If, if David still while we're here, I think you say something like that. Like,

Speaker 5 (00:55:41):

Yeah, but I'm ready for it. Like, I'm ready for those kinds of collaborative relationships with Earth and Builders in the Bay Area. I don't know if Earth and Builders the right term, but like, if we're going to create this radical space, let's really be courageously radical and collaborate with some people who are talking about alternative building models. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And let's really make it feel like a village. You know? And just, I think that would be really beautiful and powerful and had, we've had discussions about it before, but, uh, definitely like regulation comes into question. Can we build a birthing center? Will in these spaces, will they meet whatever code? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that kind of thing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Will we be able to get licensure?

Speaker 7 (00:56:29):

Yeah. That's the, that's there's a fight around that. Yeah. As there is with everything. Yeah. But you know, my, um, we had our son at home. Yeah. And to your point, like I was thinking about being courageous and like Danielle's vision for what that looked like and how it was, there was a lot that happened that led up to the, to the creation of, and cultivation in that space. We got our sister, we got my mom, our, our midwife Debbie, uh, and, uh, her, her assistant who also named Debbie, I think.

Speaker 5 (00:56:55):

Oh, did you have Debbie Allen? Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (00:56:58):

<laugh>. So it was like beautiful. But, um, like what Danielle would say about that experience in relationship to Ion's birth was that like, that those black midwife nurse practitioners inside Kaiser were like, push,

Speaker 5 (00:57:14):

Push, push. Sure.

Speaker 7 (00:57:15):

And so when it came time for her to, to deliver Ananzi, we were both looking at Debbie like,

Speaker 5 (00:57:21):

Uhhuh, where's the instruction? Yeah.

Speaker 7 (00:57:23):

And Debbie's like,

Speaker 5 (00:57:24):

You tell me, she said, go ahead, <laugh>

Speaker 7 (00:57:27):

And Danielle. Beautifully. I saw my son in the wa underneath the water. He came out smiling. Oh. And so I thought about like the difference between, uh, holding my daughter as she's that rites of passage in that space. Yes. Yes. And Ananzi's rites of passage. Yes. Yeah. And what I learned when we were doing the work with those, those grounded families in, in Oregon and one of the practitioners we brought in was part of the healing, was telling our children about what their birth process was like. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. For the sake of helping us metabolize Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Whatever trauma that may be. Yes. And then like, integrate what the protection was and intention was. And then what I learned from someone like Jewel or others is like, well now it's not, that's not the first and only rites of passage. Now for IA in particular, this is, we're having this conversation as Danielle is starting to help us gather who will be for Aya as she turns five next July, her rites of passage into five.

Speaker 5 (00:58:25):

Wow.

Speaker 7 (00:58:26):

And ti some of our work is like, it's all centered around You're a blessing. So her That's right. Our challenge for AA for this year is how do you know you really coming into understanding that you are a blessing. Yeah. And that for me is in this conversation going, we have to start at that at birth conversation.

Speaker 5 (00:58:40):

Absolutely.

Speaker 7 (00:58:41):

'cause there was a whole lot of

Speaker 5 (00:58:42):

Mess. Absolutely.

Speaker 7 (00:58:43):

But you were your energy that earth shook through that earthquake on when that night. That's

Speaker 5 (00:58:49):

Beautiful earthquake.

Speaker 7 (00:58:50):

So like the earth was confirming this. And that's what we try to help her realize about it. Also, your mom was dancing to Kendrick Lamar. It was like all this stuff going on. I'm,

Speaker 5 (00:58:59):

I mean, what a powerful story. What if you grew up all your life, hearing your father tell you the earth shook the day you were born. You know what I mean? Really mean? You really know who you are and what you came to do. Or you are willing, ready to accept who you are and what you came to do. 'cause you're being received with so much love throughout <inaudible>. Yeah. It's really, really beautiful. And it's the throughout, I think that's the connection to our work. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Uhhuh <affirmative>. It is the throughout Uhhuh <affirmative>, how do we maintain these spaces where they are reminded that they are blessings throughout, throughout Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that's our frustration and grief about schools. And that's our frustration and grief about the way that we're brought into this world. Yeah. As our frustration and grief about the way we're kidnapped into these other systems Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:59:46):

Is it's our, the, our blessing or the state of us being sacred is constantly challenged as early as when we come into the world. And then as we navigate that always being challenged, I think part of what we study your model for is how do we now we we're knowing and understanding that there are children who are brought into this world in intentional and sacred ways. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> we're beyond the hegemity of screaming loudly like we see in the movies and Right. Which we thought that was just birth. Yep. Yep. So we're beyond that. We know more Yeah. What we've engaged in these type of sacred, um, memory work. Right. And that's part of our work is continuing that is how do we then maintain the intentionality of young people being seen and treated as sacred schools are one of the primary spaces that they're in.

Speaker 5 (01:00:38):

That's right. So that is, is part of what we are advocating for in that shift is that that's a lot of time to have to contend there's a lot of time to have to fight and push back. Yeah. And so, so much of that is what do you want your energy to be smithed on? Because a lot of our practices are for supporting the contending in those spaces. Mm. And some folks are saying, we are tired of the contending, we are tired of the resistance. We have to do that everywhere else. Can we have spaces for our children and our families where we get to be Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> period. Do and, and, and what does it mean for us to cultivate those spaces? And so for folks who are like, I'm fighting for kids, I did that for, for 17 years now it, and now I'm like, are there spaces where we get to just because in the being Right.

Speaker 5 (01:01:33):

When, when Denell doesn't have to push, it's being Yeah. It's allowing the most sacred parts of yourself to be activated. That's right. When you get to just be That's right. Because you have everything that you need. Right. And that's the same thing that we say about children Right. Is they have everything they need. But when you're constantly having to defend your position Yeah. Your, your presence, then you don't get to tap into just all the greatness that is you. That's right. Right. And so you are, and we're super grateful for the work that you do in our communities and reminding us of the magic that is just in our existence. That's right. That's right. And and furthering that cause. And so we were like, how do we find this the through line? We know the through line. Yeah. It's just an ongoing exer uh, exercise practice, the spaces that work in concert for us to be our best. Yeah. And full selves we wanna support and we want other folks to support this work. How do they do that? Yes. So you can follow us on birth land at Instagram, at birth land wellness, and then the website is birth land midwifery. You can learn more about our capital campaign and you can also donate there on the website birth land midwifery.com. Yes. Lord, we appreciate you Kiki. Thank you so much. Thank you for midwifing our children. I appreciate you both <laugh> <laugh>.

Speaker 9 (01:03:01):

Thank

Speaker 5 (01:03:02):

You. It's been good. Thank you.

Speaker 9 (01:03:07):

Hey, what's happening y'all? This is Dave Stovall. Uh, thank you all again for letting me be an interlock une. I don't even know if I'm saying that word. Right. And listening to the Kiki Jordan interview, there are a few things that come up when discussing the relationship between systems and how we understand concepts like abolition. And I think Kiki has put something in focus for us as a doula and midwife and really thinking about the ways in which we support folks in hostile systems. And when you think about hostile systems, I really appreciate the point that she elevates in terms of we need to pay attention to the mundane ways that anti-blackness shows up in things like the medical system and the schooling system. And when we think about those mundane ways that anti-blackness shows up, then we can understand how it functions in structurally, right?

Speaker 9 (01:04:27):

So it's a baseline, right? To understand that these are spaces where black folks should not be, or these are spaces where we will be very clear to alert black folks that these are places that they should not be. And when they enter those places, we will do all that we can in the way that we can to marginalize them, which will result in harm. Right? And I think that that's an important way to understand the parallel relationship between medical systems and schooling systems, right? When we start to think about the structures that say it is normal to harm the black body, or we will create false assumptions around black people and blackness to justify the harm that we will inflict on them, right? And you know, for some folks in hearing that, you know, it, it, it sounds harrowing, right? In terms of these things that are supposedly intended to help somebody are now deeply structured in their intentional harm of the same people, right?

Speaker 9 (01:05:50):

And when you think about an interruption, this thing around school abolition is saying, you know, this thing is, is unacceptable, right? There is this thing the schooling system in the United States that has not by and large done right by black brown, indigenous American youth, right? It is only done right by them to the extent that they capitulate to it, and now justify the harm to the people who they either come from or look just like them, right? And I think that's the insidious nature that we have to grapple with, right? In, in terms of an interruption. And I really appreciate how Kiki mentioned, you know, we need to think about, you know, apprenticeship sense, uh, systems and apprenticeship, apprenticeship models, right? In terms of you are being educated in community with folks, right? So, you know, now, you know, you get this broader conversation around artisanship, but that's largely in the contradictions of capital.

Speaker 9 (01:07:05):

But really the artisan was the person who had the responsibility of communicating the skill to other people so that knowledge would not die, right? And I hear that heavy in Kiki's conversation with you all. And I think when we think about that apprenticeship model now, is that a way to get us closer to something like school abolition, right? This idea of schooling being problematic, but also saying that here is something that we can actually do collectively, right? As you all mentioned in the podcast, what are the things that bring us back to ancestral ways of knowing and doing right? That we know have worked for us? And at the same time, we start to move away from it, right? So now abolition says if something is unacceptable, then in rebuilding something new, there is the responsibility of moving towards the things that we have known before, right?

Speaker 9 (01:08:19):

And now how do we go back to those things, right? So how do we engage in a fugitive planning, right? So it's this idea of we're not trying to use systems to justify what it is that we do. We do what it is that we need because we need it, right? And, you know, a lot of times people miss that whole point about equity, right? Equity isn't like having the same thing. It's really getting folks what they need solely because they need it, right? So now if we start to think about that in terms of the work moving forward, and I really appreciate you all talking about, you know, the contradictions that come forward in a lot of maroon societies, right? That's a history that we don't tell, right? That maroon societies were largely able to stay in room societies because they brokered some relationship with the state, right?

Speaker 9 (01:09:16):

So like in Jamaica saying, okay, we won't take any more free black folks if you just let us do our thing. Or Mount Bayou Mississippi saying, okay, we won't support construction to the extent that you let folks in Mount Bayou do their thing, right? So it's always this contradiction, the individualized, this individualized notion of what will be preserved individually, but not looking at what will actually be destroyed collectively, right? And I think those contradictions really need to be understood because there's a deadening process in compromise, as you all mentioned, right? So when people think about these compromises to stay alive, does it actually keep us alive collectively, right? It keeps us alive individually, but it does not contribute to the collective understanding of the work all moving forward, right? And I think when you all were talking about, you know, thinking about this in school and teacher ed and, you know, black, brown indigenous folks being in public schools, right?

Speaker 9 (01:10:36):

So the maj, the ma, the vast majority of the young bloods that we care about are in public schools, right? So now we have to think about, you know, what does that contradiction mean? And can we act actively engage in a process that now allows for people to see something different? So do the examples that we produce deuce allow people to see the possibility of something different, right? And now in terms of you all's point, and I agree wholeheartedly, right? The fear has been fed to us, right? And we swallow that fear without any resistance, right? And now we think about it as the right place to be, right? So when people talk about some tiff when your grandmother was like, man, I couldn't wait to be in a hospital, but we forget like, man, we was actually able to do this thing on our own before this thing that presents a false sense of comfort is brought into the picture, right?

Speaker 9 (01:11:44):

And I think, you know, the fear is that if we do these things by ourselves, then they won't be right. They won't be adequate, they won't meet the needs. But now we are, we need to push ourselves around how do we trust ourselves to do the work? Like Tiki is now building out a collective of midwives and doulas who are trusting themselves to do this type of work, right? And this, I think you all are absolutely right, that there are few mechanisms that we have that allow us to process frustration and grief, right? And we often turn that frustration and grief inward onto the people that are closest to us. So now abolitionists saying, what does it mean to confront this frustration and grief, right? If we are in a, about the process of building something new, then what does it mean to confront those things that are now positioned as harmful to us?

Speaker 9 (01:12:58):

Right? And I think you all talking about, you know, are there places where we get to be right? And really understanding that, um, the most sacred parts of ourself are activated in the places where we are allowed to be. So if abolition says the thing that we currently have is unacceptable, the responsibility is to build the places where we can be, right? And we can be our full selves, not aspirationally, but materially. What does it mean to build out space that may not have, you know, the edifice of a, of a building, but places where we are that are representative of us being our fullest self and claiming our fullest self, right? And that's harder to do because we're between and betwixt all these contradictions of capital, right? You know, folks sending their kids to childcare in schools because they have to work, right? People have to think about all of the things that are weighing down on themselves, like paying bills, like making sure that you have enough to maintain and eat right. So I think abolition pushes us not just to think about an alternative, but also to think about how can we materially support a process that allow the people that we care about to be their fullest selves and think about, and if they, we are our fullest selves, we can now think about where to go in our work.

Speaker 3 (01:14:56):

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