i am not coyolxauhqui - i am xihuicoyotl - turquoise fire

In this episode, we chop it up with Drs. Allyson Tintiangco-Cubales and Christine Vega, both mothers and critical professors. We explore Coyolxauhqui and dismemberment, and its relationship to birthing trauma, particularly in the high-pressure pursuit of tenure in academia.

Allyson opens up about her personal journey through infertility, sharing the profound lessons learned and emphasizing the significance of rest in birthing endless possibilities. Christine adds her insights on the empowering role of Chicana Mother Work, underlining the critical interdependence between self-care and collective resilience.

Together, they unpack "mothering" as a revolutionary educational philosophy. They advocate for an authentic approach to teaching, emphasizing the need for comprehensive care for students, while challenging the constraints of schooling. This episode is a deep exploration of how mothering, in all its facets, can reshape and redefine the landscape of education.

California State University (Dominguez Hills) Professor Stephanie Cariaga, Ph.D., offers our final thoughts.

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Stay connected: www.apocalypticeducation.org

Hosts: Tiffani Marie & Kenjus Watson

Music By: Redtone Records 

Production by: Jesse Strauss, Paxtone Records 

Sponsored By: The Institute for Regenerative Futures

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

I feel like for me in like, in schools in general, like I grew up with a really, like my mama was abusive growing up, so I always been like on top of everything. So I never had to get disciplined. I don't like getting disciplined. I don't like people telling me what to do. So I just always made sure everything was good. And I feel like in schools that kind of, it kind of built an expectation of everybody of me, of who I truly wasn't because it was like, I'm coming into these classrooms, I'm ex, I'm doing so good doing everything I need to do, but in reality, I hate being here. Like, I don't wanna be here. I don't care for what you're teaching me. Like, I was in Spanish too with an A and I still barely only know how to say hello. Good morning.

Speaker 1 (00:00:40):

Like, you know, but whole time I'm in intermediate Spanish, I'm doing all these things. It's just like, I feel like for me, school, it was more like a, I have to do these things. I have to look good on paper, but reality, these are nothing like, it's just nothing for me. As soon as high school was over with, and it was like my choice to go into a classroom, I didn't want to, it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel like a home. It doesn't feel like, oh yeah, this person is teaching. Like, I know you gotta teach a whole classroom. But I like my teacher to feel like they're teaching me. Like, I don't wanna feel like I'm just another person in your classroom. I wanna feel like you're really trying to speak into me. And if you can't do it, then it's not that. And for me, like colleges and everything, you're not like, I wasn't getting spoken to, I was being told what to do. And it's like my whole life, I'm constantly being told what to do now that I'm at the age where I can make my own decisions. I just realized that wasn't for me. Like, I'm still brilliant, I'm still smart. I still could do everything that anybody asks me to do, but I just choose not to do it in a classroom.

Speaker 2 (00:01:46):

I God. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. If a school is going to teach your babies how to hate themselves, it must die. And your baby must live. And schooling will teach you to hate your family and your beloved because they have a different way of being in the world than schooling must die. Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:02:04):

Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:02:05):

So you can live.

Speaker 4 (00:02:08):

You are listening to the Apocalyptic Education podcast. I'm your host, Tiffany Marie. And a little later, the good Dr. Kendra Watson will join me for our interview segment. Join us in a final farewell to schools in hopes that we might embrace its afterlife and implications for black and other indigenous frameworks of wellness.

Speaker 2 (00:02:35):

We will embrace a apocalypse, we will embrace an unfeeling that says that education is here to bring us life.

Speaker 5 (00:02:56):

I am Don rather here with another segment of you can't make, make this up in a story that highlights the complexities and challenges surrounding educational access. In the United States, a Ridgemont woman faces legal consequences for her pursuit of a better education for her child. This case has sparked widespread debate and raised questions about the fairness of school district policies. Who would've thought that wanting a good education for my son would put me in this predicament? These were the words of a troubled mother, Ms. Johnson, as she stood handcuffed in front of Superior Court Judge Justin Lander. Despite her current ordeal, Johnson expressed I have no regret seeking a better education for him. The case centers around Ms. Johnson, a black 34-year-old resident of Ridgemont, who last month pleaded guilty in a Norton court to charges of first degree larceny and conspiracy to commit first degree larceny. The charges were based on allegations that she illegally enrolled her six-year-old son in the Norton Public School system. Despite not being a resident of the area, as Johnson faces the consequences of her actions, her case opens up a larger conversation about the right to education and the obstacles many parents face in seeking quality schooling for their children. This situation raises important questions about the lengths to which parents will go for their children's education and the systemic barriers that make such decisions necessary. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

Speaker 4 (00:04:34):

What's going on, y'all? This is Mike. Check 1, 2, 3 with Kendice and Tiffany Marie. Today we got, uh, some very, very special guests with us. I don't even know, Kendice. How would you introduce these people?

Speaker 6 (00:04:48):

Well, we introduce them by relation. Um, so I'll start to my right. <laugh>.

Speaker 6 (00:04:58):

Um, Christine is a friend, sister, uh, colleague, um, to me, mother, partner, uh, mentor, um, uh, powerful scholar. And I think someone who exudes love and, and also the combination of how love gets actualized through struggle. I met Christine years ago actually as I first came into some of this work, and you've been like a powerful sister to me. And, um, I think a, a guide and my own sort of like, uh, north star of like how to move through this work with integrity always. And I'm just so honored to be sitting here with you and hearing about this incredible work on, uh, mothering the, the way that mothering, as I've always heard you talk about it, um, the spirit of mothering and how that both, uh, exceeds and challenges and also could be a point of like jumping off for what we do in, in the work of education struggle. So welcome, thank you for being here. Um, and then I'll invite you to introduce your relationship with powerful auntie we have right

Speaker 4 (00:06:24):

Here. Oh, thanks Ken. Just for that introduction. Yes. Because now I have to attempt to, I follow that to my right. I have the one and only the godmother of the Bay Area. Hey, hey, you go, anywhere I go somewhere, if I drop this person's name, it's either free <laugh> or they're adding some extras to whatever I'm getting around the Bay Area outside of the Bay Area. This person I'm introducing still dropped the same name. It's at least like 50% off <laugh>, right?

Speaker 4 (00:07:03):

This profound beautiful mother who I have been blessed to grow up alongside. And I have been mentored by her. Um, but I think both subconsciously where she's just as praying for all of us younger scholars in the Bay Area, and then also very intentionally through our work together, um, we have moved beyond imagined closeness, <laugh>. Yeah, we've had some, some, uh, very intense spiritual journeys together and experiences that I don't think either of us were ready for, but have both, um, brought us closer and, and, and elevated us into, um, closer proximity to our calling. And so it's been an honor to work alongside you, to learn from you, learn with you. And, uh, I'm super terrified in the good way of what comes out today to be in conversation with you. I want y'all to welcome the one and only mother Auntie Allison Tiago Les

Speaker 7 (00:08:24):

Gee, that's what I,

Speaker 4 (00:08:27):

Now that we've introduced y'all <laugh>, why don't you introduce yourselves? Like how would you describe yourself? How would you introduce yourself?

Speaker 7 (00:08:36):

I think I like it better <laugh>. But when you introduce me, ah, I usually, so in interesting, you call me Auntie Orita or, you know, um, my identity for a very, very long time actually still continues today, is ae so ae uh, references. Uh, it's a Tagalog word for older sister. Um, but it seems like everybody calls me that. Mm-Hmm. And I don't even know if I named myself that at some point in my early career, but I feel like generation after generation, you know, people call me at Ali, so I, my name, you know, is definitely connected to those identities, you know, of being atte even long before I was mother. Um, so yeah, that's how I'd introduce myself. Um, besides all that, I mean, I, I've been teaching, uh, for a quarter of a century. Um, goodness. Yeah, it's been a while. Um, and I enjoy that.

Speaker 7 (00:09:49):

I enjoy, I still, till this day, you know, quarter of a century later, I still really enjoy teaching. Um, I am a mother. I'm a mother of my daughter, Maha. Um, her name means love and freedom. Um, but I think even before her I was, uh, practicing mothering or mother work, um, in so many spaces. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I didn't even know that's what it was. <laugh>. Um, and to me that really just means, you know, showing love. Um, in all the spaces that I'm in, I'm pass the mic over to my colleague, friends, <laugh>. Christine. Hi, y'all. Thank you. It's at, at, at at, um, I, uh, I think, I don't even know, uh, <laugh>. I think for me, I, I, um, I also identify as, as like as a mama right now. And that's like my role, my big role, but also as a, as a femme tour and, and a sister and, and a daughter.

Speaker 7 (00:11:00):

Those have been like nature roles right now. Um, and, um, back in, back at home, my community, they, they call me Shewe, which means turquoise fire or turquoise coyote, which, uh, could also mean getting myself into trouble. <laugh>, and I often do that, and there's like a jokester energy and, and me, and I think that's why they gave me that name back at home. And, um, is the, my son, um, really pushed me forward in doing this work. My son's name's Vega. Um, his middle name is it, which means, um, uh, <foreign> in English. I'm trying to think about it in, in English, and I can't, obsidian rain. Um, AWA and his first name is, um, uh, land with the Water Gathers, and it's Bud Fellows, my partner Sa Lineage in, in Mexico. Um, so yeah, <inaudible> does definitely drive that medicine and, and everything he does and everything he challenges me with. And so, um, including this work, which is really sharp work, really hard work, but also really beautiful, lovely work, and it's really transformed me and it's really helped us make a crack in the cannon of how we think about, uh, mothers parenting and labor. Um, but yeah, I'm always like, I feel like I'm always in between worlds doing this work. Uh, and I just saw my son has been my medicine and that way, uh, yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:12:38):

I'll show y'all. Y'all both dive in, of course, in your descriptions of yourselves, of the topic for today, but to be explicit, what would you say were maybe the experiences or lessons that kind of brought you into this, um, work that looks at like, the intersections of motherhood and, and academia?

Speaker 7 (00:13:01):

Well, actually, um, I became, uh, my partner and I became pregnant my first year PhD. I remember I came to you remember, I was like, I'm pregnant. And it's like before the semester or the quarter, isn't it? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I was kind of freaking out a bit. I was like, oh, <laugh>. Like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. But I remember telling my closest like, friends and Ken just was really, really, uh, important. And that first year I remember like telling you and telling others like, I'm gonna become a parent. And I was pretty nervous. And we had, I forgot if it was summer break. Can't remember. We had a break. And then I was a lot more like physically pregnant on campus, but I was already feeling excluded from the university. I already knew my body didn't belong, has a first gen Chicana inna on campus.

Speaker 7 (00:13:51):

Um, I was reading everything around, you know, uh, inequities in higher ed. I was living them every day. Just the physicality of getting into campus was already like, hard as a pregnant presenting person. Even sitting on a desk with the, like, with the belly was really hard. And so that led to some just conversation around like inequities on campus as a pregnant presenting person with other folks who were pregnant, which we very rarely come out and tell you. Um, and that led to organizing. Um, but it, it happened after ATU was born. So I was already kind of tracking this stuff down. Like, I feel like I don't belong. I don't feel like I'm seen. I'm called the pregnant person. I don't have a name. So these, these, these markers for me, what I what I, my, my friend Hasia, the mama, mama scholar, uh, and I, um, named maternal microaggressions, um, that started to trap peace.

Speaker 7 (00:14:49):

And, um, it led to organizing while I was pumping with our other colleague, Nora, uh, homie Nora Ciro, shout out to her. Um, and Leanna <inaudible>, who I also organized on campus with around inequities that parenting people were facing on campus. And so that led to two different, like organizations, Chicana mother work and Mothers of Color academia. And we organized on campus around these inequities. And so I was just basically organizing and, uh, I have to shout out the al because she was a visiting scholar at the time, can, we were reading a Chicana feminist, uh, methodologies. And I'm like, we don't see them like maternal narrative in here. Like, this is important work. Like how do we, how then do we build on methodologies that come that are central to the corporate realities of folks of color, particularly pregnant, presenting people and these inequities?

Speaker 7 (00:15:42):

How then do we like, like contribute to what's missing in the cannon? And she's like, kind of, kind of, I kind of got the blessing, like, this could be your dissertation. And I'm like, what? No one cares. No one cares, right? And she was like, this is work that needs to happen. And I'm like, okay, well then I guess I'm gonna write a dissertation on this. And while also organizing, and it was, it was rough. Like, I think, um, I know you were going through some stuff at UCLA and then at the other, like the parallel, um, other folks, like parenting students were facing some discrimination on campus. They were being silent, they were being threatened to get their funding removed. Like it was just really violent in these very subtle ways. And that kind of led towards basically writing these things down, publishing around it.

Speaker 7 (00:16:34):

And the anthology came out of like the struggle. Um, and not just my struggle, but just a collective struggle. Um, and that, that's also exhausting. Like, you're parenting, you're really good dissertation, you're organizing on campus, right? You're working two jobs on campus. It was exhausting. So I feel like there was a point where I hit a good, like a burnout phase, and I was like, okay. And I know we'll talk about this later, but the importance of rest and restoration and care work for the self as a form of activism really started to kind of like surface for me and just kind of focusing on paying attention to like myself and my family so that I don't fizzle out. Um, but that was part of the collective struggle that led towards this work. It's just, uh, inequities and not being silent about it and helping each other collectively to, to coordinate and organize collectively through care work to change it a bit, even if we're a little bit, yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, the coffee's kicking in.

Speaker 8 (00:17:38):

<laugh>,

Speaker 7 (00:17:41):

Thank you for all that work. Yeah. Like, I'm just listening to you describe it, and I'm like, thank you. You know, because that organizing work, the caring for other mothers is part of being, you know, like a community engaged, community responsive mother scholar. So I just wanna acknowledge you for that. Like, I think about it, I'm like, wish, I wish I had you on my campus <laugh>. Um, my story is slightly different. Uh, my origin story starts from infertility. Like, I, I start when I think about my origin, and I was as come when I was coming here, I was like, oh, I should really tell the story before the articles, you know? And, uh, for me, that starts with, um, struggling to identify as a scholar period. Um, and then landing this position at San Francisco State as a professor tenure track and getting married the same year.

Speaker 7 (00:18:43):

Hmm. Ambitious, <laugh> ambitious, um, and thinking it was all gonna kind of fall into place. Um, I wanted to have a kid. We tried for five years, you know, like, um, and it was a struggle, you know, like the stress around wanting to have a baby, um, but not being supported, um, by the institution to pursue that because of, it felt like everything, all the pressures that comes along with being a professor just was not conducive, um, to allow my body to accept being a mom. So I just wanna acknowledge that first. Um, before I talk about then becoming a mom, um, that was a struggle for me because it wasn't just about being a professor. I was also really involved in my communities, um, specifically developing pinay and pin educational partnerships or pep. Um, and I felt like in that space, you know, I was very loved and I loved back.

Speaker 7 (00:19:47):

Um, but there was also that commitment to that that took up a lot of space in my body too. Um, and then also just, um, being an <inaudible> <laugh>, um, you'd think that if you're an ate older sister, that it would be easy to become a mother, and those things are just not synonymous. Um, and they're also very difficult to hold in your body. Um, and so for me, it took a long time, um, to get pregnant. Um, and we struggled. My husband and I struggled through it. I mean, he's also an educator. Um, and we gave like 200%, you know, to our students and our communities, and we couldn't just have our own family. So that's kind of where it begins for me, because these institutions were already violent, be two mothers before I became a mother. Um, and so I, uh, it all happens during sabbaticals, <laugh> taking a break, leaving the institution for a little bit, um, and, and allowing myself, you know, to become me, you know?

Speaker 7 (00:20:52):

And, um, and so I took some time, you know, to, you know, and then eventually kind of gave up too, and becoming, wanting to become pregnant. I was like, okay, if I'm gonna be a, you know, a mama, mama for the community, I'm gonna be a mama for the community. And then just kind of left the idea of being a physical, you know, actually birthing a child. Um, and then I got pregnant. Mm-Hmm. Um, that is not a surprise to people. Stress makes it very difficult for you to Mm-Hmm. Um, get pregnant or to, uh, to be healthy. Um, and so I got pregnant. Um, I'm trying not to make it sound so easy, but, um, really a lot of it had to do with rest and restoration to be able to allow myself to be the womb that it was. Um, so I got pregnant, um, and it was hard because I was already, and my tenure clock was year four. And, um, it was so close to either I go up for tenure or not, and I didn't have enough publications to be real. I didn't, I mean, I had a lot of, I think good things about my experience as F State, like teaching was, was, it went well, you know? But the part that I was really nervous about was publications. And here I was like trying as I was pregnant, trying to write and trying to, um, you know, feed the baby. You know, like, it was a lot of, um, challenge.

Speaker 7 (00:22:30):

It's hard to explain. Like, and you were saying, you're like, you're sitting at a desk and your, your belly's touching the table. And, and I literally would be like trying to write, you know, these articles because of the pressure, you know, to, um, to get tenure. So, uh, when I was pregnant with Mahala, I, I said, you know, well, it. I'm not gonna write <laugh>. Because it was stressing me out. I was, and I felt like if it was stressing me out, it must be stressing the baby out. Yeah. So I was like, forget it, you know, I don't get tenure. I don't get tenure. You know, like, and, and stressed over other things, just trying, not stressed, but like focused more on like, um, just having her in my belly. Um, while I was pregnant with her, I was also having a bunch of students over my house, um, trying to work on their thesis, their master's thesis.

Speaker 7 (00:23:22):

Um, and so it was so interesting though, um, you know, like they were so supportive of me. I was so supportive of them. They really created this, this lovely, or this wonderful, um, symbiotic relationship around, uh, me raising them and them raising me. Um, and so I did have a deadline on March 1st, a writing deadline to turn in an article on Pianism, um, which is some of, one of the things that I've been working on for many, many years, um, focusing on Filipino women. And I went into labor that morning. What a, that's like one of the best excuses of not turning on time for a while, for a while. And I, I just actually recently told Mahala this story, um, when we were, um, we were doing a ritual and I was telling her the story. She goes, I didn't know that. I didn't know that I was born the day that you're supposed to turn in that Penai article.

Speaker 7 (00:24:24):

And then I said, that's why we're gonna get penai tattoos, <laugh>, because you are penai. You know, you were, you were meant to be born. Not, not the book, not the article at that time. And so she was born, I'm sorry if I'm taking too little to tell the story. No, you're taking the, um, right amount. <laugh>, she was born, um, and it was 17 hours of labor. How many hours were you in labor? I had 20. Right. Goodness gracious. Huh? I said, goodness gracious. Yeah. Like, that's a long time. That's our kids' personality though. Yeah. Takes their time. Does yours take their time? la <laugh>.

Speaker 7 (00:25:16):

My shy takes our time <laugh>. Anyways, so yeah. I was like, what is going on? Just come out. Right? So anyways, so after 17 hours of labor, um, had this beautiful baby, it was actually premature, um, and had, had a whole host of things happen. Um, her heart wasn't developed. Um, she wasn't able to hold down food. She got jaundice. I mean, like, it was like a series of things that I don't talk about in any of the articles. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, like, it's really hard to talk about, um, or to publish about. And I felt completely inadequate. I was like, I was meant to be, um, you know, like a teacher, not a, not a mother. Like, so I was like trying to create these strange sort of binaries between like what I'm, I know I'm good at and what I'm know I'm not good at.

Speaker 7 (00:26:11):

And I felt like I was not a good mom 'cause she was not. Um, I felt like she wasn't fully developed. Um, and it took like a year to realize I was a mom and she wasn't gonna go back to wherever she came from. <laugh>. I would literally say, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm such a good Auntie <laugh>. She can just go back to your real mom. You know? And trying to really come to terms with being a mom was difficult for me. I got no support from the university. Doesn't mean I didn't get support from my colleagues. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. 'cause there were a lot of beautiful colleagues that came through to support me. But the institution only gives you 12 weeks, you know, like, I mean, officially Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I'm like, okay, 12 weeks plus a sabbatical, plus also leave without pay was what I needed. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I don't know if a lot of people know my story, but I took time off. Like there was, it was not enough time at the university for me to really become the mother that I needed to become from my child. And so that kind of is the beginning of my story. Um, of course there's the academic side of the mother scholarship, but for me to even become a mother scholar, I needed to explain how I became a mother.

Speaker 6 (00:27:32):

Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 6 (00:27:36):

You know, y'all's stories, what's coming up in my heart is I'm hearing these, um, these, these stories of like origin or, or points of, of initiation into this kind of work are, is actually something I've first heard, I think Christine from you or, or Nora maybe Nicole, this like the first year hearing the story of Koy Shaki and this, this, uh, medicine or a story or, um, you know, invitation to think about the ways in which, uh, women or womb carriers are, are required to be torn apart, um, or are often torn apart for the benefit or for the sake of everyone else. You know? And it sounds to me like what, what, yeah. What's coming to my spirit is like the ways in which the, the requirements of academia, the university schooling, um, uh, are incompatible with, um, wholeness, um, for, for mothers for mothering. Uh, like having to bifurcate oneself quite literally, like, turn this in or, or birth a child. And dude, I am wondering like this work of mothering this pedagogy that you both have both expressed and done in, in the work that you do, is that a pathway for, for healing? Does, does the story of Koi shaki map on at all to what we learn about, you know, mother, it's pet pedagogy for healing?

Speaker 7 (00:29:09):

Yeah, that's a great question. And it's interesting because this generation of students, um, like I'm, I'm blessed to work in Chi Chicano studies, and so I'm learning that this generation of students haven't been exposed to her story. And I share that with them. And I explained it to them, and I actually wrote this one paper on, I think it's, uh, the kind of like the, well, not the origin story of shanki, but the story around her image challenging the patriarchy, but also the remembrance of the first femicide historically, um, uh, the, the, this meem of her body. And, um, I found out through this arc, like these old archeological and anthropological like analysis of her story, um, there's, and I, oh, and I show this to my students, like I show them the image. It's like this, this massive stone that was unearthed in Mexico City in 1978, I think.

Speaker 7 (00:30:05):

Um, and I showed this. I'm like, let's, let's talk about her body. Like what do you see? Let's analyze it together. And, and every single class I teach, it doesn't matter if it's inter or chika studies, it doesn't matter if it's gender, sexuality, I bring in koki. Because to me, that's been a really important image. Actually. It's part of the cover of the Chicana mother work, um, anthology and, and some of our, our gear. Um, and I'm like, there's a birth story to her that no one's talking about. Because if you analyze the, um, the in espan is like long <foreign>, the little rolls, that's a symbol of birthing. And her penile re breasts are also a symbol of producing milk. And her body's been dismembered. And so we talk about this image and the importance of this image and how the academy absolutely splits body, mind, spirit, her head being one of 'em.

Speaker 7 (00:30:55):

So the body is not connected to this intellectual like capacity that it's all, we are all one piece. Right? Um, and Ada actually talks about that, that split. They want us to be dismembered, to feel, to show up with heart and also think and analyze and create RIAs, right? And so the mothering as pedagogy for me, I show up first as a mom, and I let my students know, look, I'm a parent. I have to humanize my experience. Do not dismember me. I'm not a machine. I'm human. I care for my child. I care for myself and I care for you. And I show up with love. And they freak out. They're like, why would you care? And like, because you're somebody's child, you know, and I'm responsible at this moment to show up for you in ways that I can show love, respect, and, and you're a holistic person the same as I am.

Speaker 7 (00:31:47):

And so it's, for me, the mothering pedagogy, um, I think it's, I haven't really like sat to theorize it around it with the exception of like, I show up as my whole authentic self. And I needed to be in a space that actually honored that. And I feel like Chicano studies has been, um, a good place for that. Although, I mean, we all, we all all different, you know, disciplines have issues, right? But for me, I'm more focused on the student and the relationship with the student that I can build with them. And so I allow them, and that's up to say <laugh>, but I give, I give ourselves permission to plan this class together. There's some content I wanna revise and, and share with them, but I have them support themselves and engaging with how, when they want deadlines, what is our policy around submitting stuff for when it's best for them.

Speaker 7 (00:32:39):

Um, just come talk to me. Don't, don't think that you can't approach me if you need support in any kind of way. Like, I'm here to hear you. I'm here to listen. I'm here to, you know, to uplift you. And they're not used to that. Like, they're just not used to that. And so my mother in pedagogy really comes from a place of like, I wanna treat my students the way I hope my son is being treated at a classroom. And how I hope other little children and other young people are being treated in the classroom. And I mean, I've experienced some things with my son, um, in the classrooms that he's been, um, but I show up in that way. Um, and a lot of my students wanna become educators. And I'm like, you don't have to teach a certain way. You can really change that paradigm.

Speaker 7 (00:33:25):

And, um, I feel like they've never had permission to think outside of that. And, and so my mother in pedagogies really informed off like just body, mind, spirit, just kind of centering heart with love and respect, but mainly is to humanize myself so that they can also humanize themselves and their needs as students. Um, and that's hard work. They're not used to it. Uh, I give them an option last week I'm like, what do y'all wanna do? Like, what's, what do you need right now? And they're like, cricket, right? And I'm like, no one's asked you what you needed before. Professors have been asking what you needed before. And they're like, don't know what to say. Right? And so I'm like, okay, well, we'll continue working on that. It's only been a week, five weeks six, right? So it's still, they're still kind of getting to know, to know me as their, as their educator, as their teacher, but also as their, I call them colleagues, even though they're undergrads.

Speaker 7 (00:34:19):

I'm like, we're colleagues here. We've gotta work on that. Right? Um, that mothering pedagogy for me, it's just kind of like what feels right at that moment, but mainly stepping into my mothering role when I come into the classroom space. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> hard work. I wanna watch you. I wanna see you in person watching you teach the students with that mother pedagogy. I really appreciate that. Um, I, yeah, I'm very similar. I think in the pedagogical side. I do wanna kind of take it back a little bit. Like I feel like, um, we're talking about mothering as it's a thing that is the same for all kinds of people, right? And so I wanna acknowledge that, um, my mothering sounds very similar to Christine's, but it may not sound similar to other mothers in the institution or academia. So I wanna acknowledge for sure. Um, and I think that's why we're here probably 'cause we have some similarities in, in the ways we would approach mothering.

Speaker 7 (00:35:27):

But, um, I, I just wanna acknowledge there's a difference between motherhood and mothering or mother work. Those are di different things. And motherhood comes from, you know, patriarchy. And so particularly for mothers, we are in motherhood. We're expected to be the sole provider for our children. We are expected to give up our lives for our children. Just wanna acknowledge that Mm-Hmm. How mess that is. And then also, um, this idea that motherhood means that we are able to socialize our children to be successful in whatever society. I, those are sort of these guardrails around motherhood. And so, um, important that when we kind of juxtapose mother work or mothering, you know, like, um, that we make decolonial or we'd make particular choices around the ways in which we mother. Yeah. Um, because if I was to use the motherhood, you know, like as, as the basis for mother pedagogy or mothering pedagogy, then I would be that teacher <laugh> that would be, um, oppressive.

Speaker 7 (00:36:50):

Just try to make it simple. But mothering, because the purpose of the two things are very different. The idea of motherhood is really about maintenance sustainability in a particular system. Mothering allows us to be more liberating in our practices because the goal is collective liberation, at least in my understanding of the kind of mothering that I hope I'm participating in. Um, and so I wanna acknowledge that first before I then say yes, you know, in my classroom, you know, because as a mother to my child mahala, I, I try to create opportunities for her to be able to liberate herself. Um, and so that's the same thing I do in the classroom. I don't liberate my students Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It's just, that's not even possible. You know, in my mind, I try to create opportunities for them to dig deep, you know, uh, find ways to love themselves, um, to give them the capacity, um, to ask questions that are hard questions that maybe I can't even answer.

Speaker 7 (00:38:01):

Um, and then definitely, you know, to find, you know, sacred purpose in their life. No matter what class I'm teaching right now, I'm having to be teaching Asian American family and identity <laugh>. So it's kind of the timing of this, you know, like podcast works out. But I also wanna say that I, what I do there is the same thing I do with my child. Don't get me wrong, I don't pay everybody's tuition <laugh>, you know, but the things that I practice with my child in terms of the learning is the same as what happens in the classroom. And so I just wanna acknowledge that that is because I've made a specific or very, very deliberate choice to mother in this way. And, um, which is very different than what is expected of mothers to be. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Just as it's same as teaching. Like we're expected to be some kind of way, but we make choices about the way we teach, we make choices about our pedagogy. Um, we get pressures from other things, but we make choices about the kind of mother scholar, teacher community, engaged, activist, whatever you wanna call us. You know, like we make choices around that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:39:17):

I really, I appreciate you with, uh, the differentiation, right? Between the two and thinking about even in how there's similarities, right? In you say how y'all might mother, but I also like Christine, your work focuses particularly on like this intersection of care right? In in the academy. You said a little bit about it. Can you share a little bit more though, expound on like what does that look like in practice? Right? What does Chicana mothering look like in relationship to care in like the academic setting?

Speaker 7 (00:39:50):

As you said that the sun is coming out, <laugh> light change, <laugh>, that's, uh, that's like an ongoing journey, I feel. Um, because so something you said earlier, ate, I am gonna call you ate. Um, if that's okay, <laugh>, and that's okay. I, I was in need of a big sister. We hold onto that. Um, I, I remember that when I was pregnant. My, who are now my, who are friends now, were students at UCLA really provided a lot of care for me and that made me feel less invisible. Um, and so those were like the beginning moments of care, work, care work for me before I became a parent was deeply embedded in ceremony. Um, I wanna shout out the folks who are sweating this morning. The women are sweating today. Um, but I came to the ceremony instead, right? And so that for me was really important.

Speaker 7 (00:40:52):

Ceremony, sweat lodge, Sundance, the fasting I used to do every season, um, that was care work for me. 'cause I was actually carrying a fire for my community. And that's, you're just picking up everybody's stuff, right? And so I had to take care of myself in that way. But once I became a mama and I was in the academy, that kind of was, um, taken away a bit. So I kind of had to relearn how to reuse that medicine in different ways. And so I'm still learning how to do that care work for, for myself particularly so that I can be supportive to students. So the care work, sometimes it's as simple as just listening to students or just checking in with them. I feel like there's an intuition that I don't know. Um, you can tell when somebody's just having a hard day, um, or somebody's like a student's hungry.

Speaker 7 (00:41:41):

And it's, I I, and this is before I became a mom, I just been, I was just born this way. I think it's my grandpa's fault. Like this is just how I've heard of him being as a person back in El Rancho back in Mexico. His intuition of caring for other people in, in the, in the little ranchito. And then the same for my aunties. It's, I think it's generational. They, they would care for folks who didn't have anything to eat. They would make burritos and pass 'em out, like for folks who didn't have anything to eat. And they still do that for those who still remain alive. Um, so I think it's just part of this genetic, genetic, genetic and spiritual makeup of just being intuitive to what my students may or may not need. Um, but I think I'm relearning how to take care of myself.

Speaker 7 (00:42:24):

And, and I don't get to go to ceremony as much as, especially with, with uh, covid happening. We can't, we can't be inside of a lodge, but they're, they're coming back. They're coming back, which is really exciting. But the care work definitely is just the simple as checking in with folk. Um, but to be quite honest, COVID ISS really challenged that, um, part of care work. Um, and I mean, for me right now, so that I can fill up my cup so that I could be available to my son, to myself, to my partner, to my students is just going back to this, this concept about rest, rest and restoration that I feel like didn't have permission to like practice that. And I had to have this conversation with my partner. We both had this conversation together that we don't need to be ill in order for us to rest.

Speaker 7 (00:43:18):

And it just, it can't get to that point anymore. And the int the institution's really good about like, well, if you're ill, that's when you can be absent. Mm-Hmm. I'm not about that. And so I've kind of been sitting with just resting and being okay with not opening up the laptop and checking emails all the time. Um, but the care work also manifests in ways where I do leave my office door open because I know students sometimes come by the hallway and I can support them. And just sometimes just listening to them. And, and something I had to learn, and I'm still learning at this age, is that, um, I can't fix everyone. And, and it hurts me. 'cause I always want, I was always like, okay, let's solution based, you know, let's fix everything. I'm learning this through this idea of rest and restoration and self care, um, to take care of myself is that I just can't fix problems for everyone.

Speaker 7 (00:44:14):

But sometimes it just needs someone to listen, someone to have a snack in the office. Someone can walk 'em to the coffee shop to get him a coffee and that's it. That's, that's, and that's okay. So I'm kind of like in between that journey for, uh, care work. Um, and it's reciprocated because when students come with gifts and I am all embarrassed about it, it's really hard for me to like receive. I've had students drop off enchiladas and I'm like, why are you doing this? Right? They're like, 'cause we know you're hungry. And I'm, how do you know I'm hungry? I will eat this for sure. Or they'll come, they hear the things I say in class and I'm really surprised about the care work that I'm also receiving on their behalf. And I'm like, oh my goodness. Like I, it's, that's a huge gift, um, that they think about me in that way that they want, they wanna care for me as well. And, and I'm pretty shocked about that. But I am also learning to open up and receive as a different kind of medicine. And so I'm like, all right, fair. That's fair. That's fair. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 4 (00:45:17):

<affirmative>, I'll stop there. Pushing back against some of the motherhood, right? <laugh> that you only give and you don't receive. Uhhuh. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (00:45:27):

I like her. See me <laugh>. Actually, you know how you said earlier you call me the good godmother of the bear. Well, I called

Speaker 4 (00:45:35):

You originally the godfather. And then I was like,

Speaker 7 (00:45:38):

Whoa, that came out

Speaker 4 (00:45:40):

Way too quickly. Why did I just anyhow, godmother? For sure.

Speaker 7 (00:45:44):

Um, it's so funny 'cause you said that, and right after this, 'cause you know, I kind of dressed up a little bit, going to a, uh, bridal shower Okay. Of my students. And I'm literally, my husband and I are gonna be the godparents at her, their wedding <laugh>. So I think it's just funny to bring it up that way, like the reciprocation and then also like these relationships that are just so life giving lifesaving. Um, I was thinking about when you were talking, when I actually went into, before I went into labor, they gave me a baby shower, you know, my, uh, my, some of my students and some of the pep teachers, and they made this, um, this necklace. Everyone had a bead, you know? And I was like, they created ceremony out of my, you know, like birthing process. Everyone had a bead.

Speaker 7 (00:46:37):

And then each person, uh, put a symbol on the bead, you know, so that I would have this set of beads or this necklace to bring in with me in labor. And I was clenching that for 17 hours <laugh>. And I was like, my gosh. You know? But I felt that, I felt the support through that. And then all the high school students that were in pep wrote these little letters. I still have them on our altar, these little tiny letters that, um, they rolled up and put into a bottle for me. And, um, once in a while I'll, you know, pull 'em out and read them and, and, and know that it's not just me giving, it's a relationship, you know, that they are also giving back. And they're, it's just so beautiful. You know, like, I, I think about that. And I think sometimes people are like, oh, you give so much. I'm like, I get a lot. And I appreciate that. I, and I, I try to redefine that, you know, like, yeah, we give a lot, but then like, you know, part of that means growing. And if you're really growing a community of people as a mama or, you know, um, it also means that they learn how to grow up and also be there for you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It is beautiful though. I,

Speaker 7 (00:47:52):

And I've had people in my, people pass in my life, you know, in the last five, six years. And like, students, former students and students, teachers I've worked with like, like they've been there like as family, as community. And so I feel like that, that tells me that I did all the right things. 'cause I think sometimes the institution's telling you, you're not

Speaker 4 (00:48:17):

<laugh>,

Speaker 7 (00:48:18):

They're like, you are gonna get punished if you don't do this. You're gonna get punished if you do that. I even told, I even had a, uh, the, one of the administrators, I won't name names, but one of the administrators in my, I think it was my second or third year at State, told me I was up, was like, you're up. And what he was referring to was my commitment to creating pep in the community. It literally said those words to me. And I, I was so shocked. I mean, I, I went out. I, I didn't let him see me cry, you know, I don't let him see me cry, but I walked out, went to my office and cried. Yeah. I was like, what do you mean I'm up? You know, like, I feel like I'm doing so much, you know? Um, but he was trying to say, I spent too much time in the community and not, not enough time. Right?

Speaker 4 (00:49:06):

Yeah.

Speaker 7 (00:49:08):

So those feelings, you know, then were also embedded in this, this creation of me as an imposter, imposter syndrome, like kind of as a professor. But then it also started to feed into my relationship as a mother. You know, I struggled with, I give so much to the community, am I good enough for my daughter? You know? So there's this toggling back and forth with these insecurities that I lived with. And I, I mean, I don't feel that way as a 52-year-old with a 19-year-old daughter. I don't feel that way now. But in the middle, all of that, it was just this constant beating myself up feeling guilty. Yeah. Um, I'll leave it at that <laugh>,

Speaker 4 (00:49:53):

You know, you, I feel like it's a fact or a well-known fact that you also marry a bunch of people.

Speaker 7 (00:49:59):

Oh yeah. That's, that's a thing, huh?

Speaker 4 (00:50:03):

But when you were, um, when you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, why y'all both are so blessed by your community, right? Because there are a number of folks who give and give and give and is kind of drought over in their territory. Right? And I was thinking about, um, the ceremony that, the last ceremony that you and I had together, and can I talk about it?

Speaker 7 (00:50:29):

Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:50:30):

We're both laid out on the table on tables, our eyes covered and we're engaged in, you know, really intense breath work. And I just remember Allison saying, I can't, I can't. And then she just starts, she just, lets go. And you said, you said, I let out this sound, but you let out this sound first. And I felt her being free.

Speaker 4 (00:51:03):

And I was like, I felt like it would be disrespectful to be around you and not take that risk. And so that the sound that you heard coming from me, right, that release coming from me was informed by the courage that you are modeling and the environment that it created. Right? So I'm imagining that y'all get fed in the ways that you get fed because it almost feels dishonest, right. To not pour back into y'all. But I'm interested in, 'cause I think there's something about what I'm trying to get at, and this is totally off script about this type of pedagogy compared to a lot of others that I think sound good. They make sense theoretically, but in practice don't have that type of reciprocal relationship. Why do y'all think people feed y'all?

Speaker 7 (00:51:56):

Hmm.

Speaker 4 (00:51:58):

Because it's, it's a lot of folks that give and give and they hungry. What about a mothering pedagogy do you think then feeds you?

Speaker 7 (00:52:14):

I really didn't know that I was the one that made the sound first. I go

Speaker 4 (00:52:18):

First.

Speaker 7 (00:52:20):

'cause I had been thanking you for that moment, for a long time since then. I heard Tiffany like wail and then quite literally saw the light,

Speaker 4 (00:52:32):

You know, like

Speaker 7 (00:52:33):

Physically against my eyes were closed. But I saw like, oh, I'm not alone. Um, someone next to me is experiencing what I'm experiencing, but is also willing to like yell. Yeah. So that I can see my way.

Speaker 7 (00:52:55):

Like, I think that to me that is telling of a lot of things. One, I trusted, I just trust you. And I feel like we had had a, a very deep conversation, I think going up. Yeah. So it wasn't just laying out on a bed, doing breathing together and, and, and beautiful experience. And I really think the folks who, who walked us through that acu breath. Yeah. But before we even got to the location that we were at, we were already talking. And in that conversation, we were talking about imagined closeness. Um, this idea that I was kind of critiquing myself and critiquing some other folks for pretending that we're closed. You know, like for whatever purposes. Like, so that we can look aligned so that, you know, like, um, people know we work together. Um, like the, and in some ways that's a protection.

Speaker 7 (00:54:08):

So I don't wanna like totally dismantle that idea. But then I was like, but we don't actually know each other. We really don't know each other. And it's not just like knowing things about each other. 'cause there's that, right? Like, I know certain things about you. I know your dog's name is Chauncey, you know, but like, it, it's more like knowing you and, um, experiencing things with you. And so I'm trying to get to the, you know, like, why do I think people feed us back is because it's not just about mothering isn't just about giving them something. It's about experiencing something with them. Like being in dialogue with them. That's like a real dialogue. Like real questions. Like I feel like, actually I'm glad I didn't prepare for today. I, Tiffany was texting me, <laugh> and the mic several times. You ready for this?

Speaker 7 (00:55:03):

You doing it? I'm like, sure. But I actually didn't look at the email till today. I mean, because I am swamped. Right. Um, but then also because as I just trust you enough to come and know that we can have a conversation. Yeah. And so that's how I approach the mothering and the teaching. And like, we're gonna be, all right, let's talk through this. Let's figure this out together. I may not have all the answers for you, but I probably think you probably have the answers in there. I just have to like, allow that to come out. And, um, I think most of my students, especially the ones that I've worked with closely, like whether it's be like, um, like during a master's thesis, like relationship or dissertation or mentorship or, you know, actually anyone who messages me, I'm willing to meet with them. Right.

Speaker 7 (00:56:00):

But I feel like I'm, so my biggest goal, this is so when I'm with somebody, is just to be present at the time. 'cause there's so many things like happening. But if I can be present for that person and just listen, the answers might come out. They may not come out. But at least that there's a relationship that is being built. And so to me, that's really what it is. Like, what is the relationship that we're building together? Um, and sometimes I do feel guilty because, you know, like, um, I have more resources than my students and more power. And so I don't, sometimes when they do give me like, you know, like the food, I'm like, oh man, you know, I feel bad. Yeah, I feel bad. 'cause you know, like they don't have as much as we do. You know, I'm, I'm just thinking like in this part of my life.

Speaker 7 (00:56:52):

Um, but there's also something that happens when you give something to someone. And I know that, that they're giving to me is also something for them. Like, I had this one student who made like the best mochi, <laugh>. I've never tasted mochi like that, ever. I try to buy mochi in stores and stuff. It is not the same. Um, but I remember every time I would like, and I would eat it, I would eat at least one in front of her just so that she would know I'm not giving it away, you know? And she'd be like, do you like it <laugh>? And I'd be like, so good. And she's like, that makes me feel good. And I remember that the, when she said that, I was like, that's why I accept the things, you know, because not just for me. So I'll kinda leave it at that.

Speaker 7 (00:57:43):

I love that. Thank you for sharing. Uh, that's a good question. To, um, I don't know. Uh, and I don't know if I had teachers that I wanted to give like that too, right? Maybe, maybe one, maybe two. But it was a different kind of giving. Um, I do know that when I give to them, it makes me feel good that they're eating. Like I, for me, food a ceremony is, we had a lot of food insecurities growing up, and food for me is so sacred. And so I still catch myself buying snacks for them and, and taking snacks, or I'm like, all I love, I make this pretty beastly bong, garlic hummus that maybe I'll make for y'all one day. It sounds good. With cilantro and Serrano, I, I love get up and it's one of my favorite things to do. My, one of my best friends is a food plant-based, uh, chef back at home at Pacoima.

Speaker 7 (00:58:43):

And I learned a lot from her. I was like, these are the things you don't buy, you make. And I'm like, all right, like fresh corn, don't buy it canned. Go get it fresh cut and freeze it. And the same thing with hummus. And so for me, it's like a ritual that then I share with my students and I'll take to class, I'll go get some veggies and, and they're, they don't wanna eat the veggies. I want the chips instead <laugh>. And I'm like, all right, I'll be just try it. Right. I'll make, try it. Um, I'm kind of like pushy like that. Um, but it, the, I think the exchange of energy is also like, it gives, it makes them feel good, right? I feel like, and, and again, there's, there's some tensions between seeing me as a mom or as a maternal figure that I also kind of grapple with because, um, I know I read some stuff out there too, that a lot of the, well we know this women of color pick up a lot of the labor and mentoring and supporting students, um, and other faculty and other folks.

Speaker 7 (00:59:41):

Um, and so I also understand and acknowledge that. So I think for them it just, it makes them feel happy. Like they can give something back. Right? Um, it's their, for me, what came up as, as you asked that question and, and the such came through, I was like, it's love. It's just love. And I don't know if I can explain beyond that. Like, it's love, love and respect, and they also in care. Um, but I feel the same way. I'm like, I am like, you're probably like hustling two jobs. And and I know most of the students that end up bringing something, I know there's story. 'cause I'm, I've checked in with them before, right? Like, they're hustling multiple jobs. They're caring for an elder, and here they're bringing me something to eat. And mostly it comes from their care. Like their, the folks that they're caring for them that send the food over.

Speaker 7 (01:00:30):

And I'm like, okay, well I'm gonna to eat it because first of all, it's food and I appreciate it. And it's made with love and care and, and, um, it's just, it's love that's also I can think of and feel through. It's just love. Yeah. There's no other way to explain it. <laugh>. It's true that it comes from their family. Sometimes it's not all the time, but sometimes I'm, I had one student who came to my office and he'd been sick for like three weeks. I'm like, get to go to the doctor. I don't wanna go. You know, like the, I walked him over. It was when I was, when I was working at Berkeley, I walked him over, you know, to the medical center and, you know, then they gave him a test and then they brought him over to the, the real hospital, quote unquote.

Speaker 7 (01:01:15):

And then he had ca they found out he had cancer. Oh man. And like, it was this huge, um, like watermelon size in his <laugh> body tumor tumor. And then from that point on, the mom would just, I mean, he, he's good. He is doing very well actually now, but his mom would consistently send over food, you know? Yeah. Because it is about like, you know, if we wouldn't have had that moment, who knows. Right. But I, I do appreciate that that idea that it, it's not just the student, it's also who they're connected to and their family who cares about them. And so the network gets bigger because of that, or the community gets bigger because of that.

Speaker 6 (01:02:00):

I'm hearing, like, the, the question that I had was one that was on script, and so I'm like trying to be responsive to No, I mean, this is beautiful because it provided like, um, some grounding for that question, which was around, you know, what should we offer or what is there to offer to anyone who might be grounded in these places that could essentially get outta the way so that mother work, um, mothering could lead. And what were some of the practices? And I'm hearing like a, you know, Allison, you were talking about presence and relationality as being centered, um, being fed and feeding people as an example or expression of love and accepting, uh, what gifts are offered because that, that also honors or, um, ex expresses the same sort of, um, uh, both undermines like the motherhood framework. Um, and it, it also sustains folks.

Speaker 6 (01:03:00):

And when, back when I was like, first coming into like higher ed, I learned this term in local parentis. And so when you first talked about parenthood or motherhood as this, like juxtaposition to mothering mother pedagogy in local parentis means in place of the parent, which is how colleges and universities set themself up to be. And I think it maps on to me, like when you talk about motherhood, I think fatherhood parenthood, what that, that shame and guilt that you heard when the person was telling you you're up according to their, um, their metrics of what it means to, to be. And so there's all this really up, harmful parenthood, motherhood, fatherhood happening in these spaces. And what I'm hearing, and that what I've felt in my life, um, has been the ways in which what y'all are talking about exceeds, um, ruptures creates pockets for us to exist in these spaces, um, a little bit longer.

Speaker 6 (01:04:05):

And knowing that there's also, like, I think like Bert Ava's work, right? The first brought us together about like, the ways in which mothers or those who are, um, in the process of mothering are harmed by it. And I'm just wondering, like, well, what do we, is um, yeah, what's this question? Is this the, is there a a beyond what we're saying? Is there anything other to do, you know, with, with what we inhabit? These are spaces that are, that are doing in local parentis. Um, what, what are, where the ways that we're situated in them, is it, is it possible for us to, um, sustain this? Um, if it, if that is the case, like, what else should we be doing? Um, I'm sorry, y'all, this is like a hard question to get out. Is it? What else should we be doing, uh, in these spaces or beyond these spaces to sustain our lives, um, knowing what they're attempting to do to, to us and against our lives?

Speaker 7 (01:05:08):

This is a question for us, not the institution <laugh>, because it's a, a hard question to answer in isolation. Like, what should we do? Wow. Yeah. Because we're doing what we're doing, right? Yeah. Um, so I feel like that there's that, and then it becomes a responsibility of, for us to either assimilate or acculturate into a system that it's problematic. I up <laugh>. Um, I think protecting ourselves is really important. So maybe that's not, we didn't talk about that as much. I feel like we are, we already talked about what we do. We had like, doing a lot of stuff, but protecting ourselves. And that does require the rest and res rest and restoration. But protecting ourselves also means that we're not doing or we don't tell everyone what we do.

Speaker 7 (01:06:12):

I said that to you before. Huh? <laugh>. Well, we don't need to tell everyone what we do. Um, I also feel like I wanna talk a little bit about, I know it might be a different question, but around the institution. Like, what should the institution do? And you said something really important at the very beginning of your question was get outta the way out the way so we can do our life's work, our fulfill our purpose. Um, and so sometimes I toggle between back and forth, back and forth between what the int institutions should institutionalize to be better supportive of us. And sometimes I'm like, they're not gonna be able to do that. And so just get outta the way. Like, I've heard different suggestions, like, you know, extend maternity leave, um, you know, like have an option to go maternity leave into sabbatical. Um, I've also even heard, like when we get, um, uh, evaluated, you know, for tenure, like allow it to be a category in service.

Speaker 7 (01:07:18):

Yeah. I like that idea. But I'm like, well, are they gonna, is there gonna be a weird measurement Right? Around How do you assess that? How do you assess that I'm being a good mother or I don't know, like, I feel like funny, but I do know that what the ways that things are measured, I'm on RTP right now, right? I'm always on RTP once I got tenure. We're, we're always doing that. 'cause we wanna make sure our people get through. Hmm. But one of the things that is hard to measure is service. And so if you were organ, if I, we were organizing together and it was not official. How do you tell people on in my service category, I am serving a community of mothers, A community of people. Yeah. You know, like, I may not have an email to prove that or a, you know, like, and so it's, it's interesting, you know, to, to ask the question, what do we need to do more?

Speaker 7 (01:08:17):

Because I don't think, I think you cannot talk about what we need to do more without talking about how the institution needs to change. Or in your words, you know, blow up or apocalyptic. That's Christine's Christine's words. I don't know her work. I don't know who said that. But basically we need an apocalypse in the education system. Somebody said some, I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Well, none of us. I said it, it's very, it very, like, it really is like, how do you, you know, like it is a rethink. So all of those, the institution, you know, of course is embedded with the ideology of all the things that we hate, but then we want to be accepted in those institutions. So it's this really funny thing that happens, um, that I think I still toggle with. But I will say when I'm in positions of power in that system, I try to like, you know, open it up, create vestiges or create opportunities or ways where people can push through. Um, which is another form of mothering, I guess.

Speaker 7 (01:09:23):

Ditto <laugh>. Oh my god. Ditto. Um, that's a hard question. I, I do love what you said Canice folks need to just get out of the way. And I've heard other mothers say that they just need to let us do our work. Get out of the way. Let us be. And I love the, I feel like it's advice, like you don't wanna have to say it. We think you're doing. And I think that's something I'm also learning from, like, the work we do with Earth and the work that we, we do as mothers and the work that we do in community. Like, some of those things you can't, it's hard to, I don't wanna say quantify it, it's important work, right? And even the question about like mothering pedagogy, like how do you even capture that? It's so complex. And I was thinking earlier, um, I'm only the expert of my own mothering experience 'cause everybody has a different experience.

Speaker 7 (01:10:17):

Um, and even then, I'm not an expert because my son's always teaching me over and over and over. Um, some, I'm a student, I'm a learner. I'm undoing, I'm unraveling all the time. And just for me, it's like, okay, like I, I think what, I don't have anything to add to that, but to say like, I love what, what you're sharing because then I'm here. I'm just a witness to that, right? As a new assistant, faculty, assistant professor, um, it just makes it feel seen. It's like, alright, these are some, some things I should consider. Mm-Hmm. You know, as I move forward. Um, and I need money so I can give it to my students so we can do dope on campus. And onus doesn't fall on them when it comes to organizing how I fell on my, my back, my body, my spirit. Um, that is the other thing I need is get outta the way. <laugh>. Um, so yeah. So thank you for sharing that. Thanks for asking that hard

Speaker 6 (01:11:14):

Question. So thank y'all for, for dealing with that muddled ness. <laugh> that came your way.

Speaker 7 (01:11:18):

I was like mother to me or parenting.

Speaker 4 (01:11:21):

I mean, we, we've, I just took some notes. Care, right? The student, the learner, unlearning and unraveling. Right? So I wanna say Asha to mothering. Um, thank you two for being with us today. I've learned so much. Yes. And yeah, it was, you, you were first. You encouraged me,

Speaker 6 (01:11:44):

<laugh>.

Speaker 4 (01:11:44):

So you tell the story, right? Thank You'all so much. Thank you. So thank

Speaker 7 (01:11:49):

You all. Thank you. Appreciate

Speaker 9 (01:12:00):

To begin. I want to first acknowledge the immense grief that I carry as a mother in this moment as I continue to wake up to horrific news of state sanctioned violence being perpetrated against children all across the world, um, without my consent. Although, um, those of us who are in the US are find ourselves complicit in continued violence against children. Um, and so as I reflect on this episode and this conversation about mothering, I first wanted to start with saying that to be a mother right now is to be, um, among many other things in constant grief, in constant hypervigilance, um, and also in constant hope and faith, um, and enduring commitments to being in solidarity with folks to create a better world.

Speaker 9 (01:13:06):

And, um, as I was listening to at the Allison and Christine, um, two folks who I really admire and respect, um, and love, um, and have been in community with, in, in different ways, as I listened to them, I, I noticed a, a couple things that I want to just reflect upon. Um, and the first is how mothering, um, and the mother work that they talked about exposes a lot of important things about schooling. And it was through, first through Christine's, um, conversation about Koki. So the, the warrior, the moon goddess that when you look at her image, um, she's basically a warrior who's been dismembered by patriarchy, right? Um, her, she's decapitated, she's just in different parts. Um, and when she was talking about the Manal, or actually when she was talking about, uh, Koki, I was thinking about, um, the Manal and the Manal is a different but very similar, um, image in Filipino culture.

Speaker 9 (01:14:27):

So it's this like monster or this creature that kind of looks like a vampire. 'cause it has bat wings and, um, people are scared of it because it can detach its torso from the rest of its body, and then it goes, I guess in the night and it goes after pregnant women, right? And so, as Christine was talking about Kochi, I was thinking about the manal and how both of these, um, images are kind of like these monstrosities, these horrific things, um, that are gendered, uh, because the Manal is often seen as, as a female creature. Um, and I think what both of these creatures do is it shows us that, um, these horrific creatures that, that we look at, they actually expose more, not about themselves, but about the society that has created them. And so I I, I think it's interesting that both of these characters, Koki and Manal, they're like literally severed, right?

Speaker 9 (01:15:35):

They're dismembered. Um, and when I think about my journey into motherhood, I actually had to quit teaching, or I was also pushed outta teaching. Um, in order to make space to become a mother. Like, I couldn't do those two things at the same time. I was too heavily invested in pouring into my own students. Um, and it took a toll on my own health and my relationships. And so I, I couldn't hold both of those things at once. And so I actually, um, became pregnant and then gave birth to my first daughter Lila, um, after I left the high school classroom, right? Um, and so I say that because it's interesting that both Christine and Athea Allison, um, talked about their struggles of negotiating their own identities as mothers or even their entrance into becoming a mother, um, with the project of schooling and the Academy, right?

Speaker 9 (01:16:43):

So what I think both their stories and my own story, um, exposes is that schooling is incompatible with the life giving project of mothering, right? Schooling is an inherently violent life destroying life, suppressing life, silencing, um, project. And, you know, if this podcast is about abolition and destroying all that which dishonors life, which includes prisons, police, and schooling, then I think that mothering as something that is antithetical right to death and destruction because it is inherently creative and life-giving, I think mothering is an important site, um, to think about ways to be an abolitionist educator in this time. And so for those of us who are interested in integrating, um, mothering into our educating life, um, I wanna uplift a few things that spoke to me as I listened to Christine and Athe Allison engage in conversation. Um, and one of those is that, you know, mothering is inherently creative, right?

Speaker 9 (01:18:04):

We literally give birth to babies. Um, but it doesn't have to be like physical babies. I, I think to be, um, a mother is to give life in many different ways. Um, and when I think about, you know, birthing things, I, I, I of course think about Athe Allison and how she gave birth to this amazing community of folks called pep, um, Penai, Peno Filipinos, um, educational partnerships, right? And I, um, I am one of the few Filipino folks who did not have a chance to actually experience pep firsthand, um, one of the regrets of my life. But I am in community with folks like Ed Kme, Liza Gaudin, Kimmi Manis, um, who have come out of PEP in a now creating beautiful worlds in higher education, um, in historic Filipino town in their classrooms and with their families. And so, you know, to be, um, to engage in this mother work as educators is to create sustainable, um, lasting impact, and you literally give birth to new worlds, right?

Speaker 9 (01:19:24):

Um, so that's one thing that I wanna uplift. And then secondly, um, to engage in mother work is also to be fiercely protective. Like, you know, if if anybody comes from my kids, like there is a <laugh>, there is a automatic instinct to like protect and fight you if you come after my babies, right? Um, and I think that's something that we, especially in these times, really need to channel fiercely and, and un un unapologetically. Um, and I see that in Christine's work. Um, one experience I had with Christine at UCLA is, um, I was there when she first started to organize mothers of color in academia at UCLA. And I remember being pregnant with my second child, Leno and bringing my daughter Lila to campus because there was a rally that the moca Mujeres and, and mothers, um, organized to take up space in at UCLA, um, to advocate for a lactation room for breastfeeding parents.

Speaker 9 (01:20:31):

Um, 'cause literally, like I remember having a student that had to pump their breast milk in like a bathroom stall, right? Um, and so I think that's a, an important part of mothering. I think we see sometimes we stereotype mothering as this soft nurturing thing, which it is. And when we need to be hard and we need to be protective, and we need to take up space and speak up and advocate for necessary change, um, that is also an important part of mother work, right? The third thing that I wanna uplift as well is that, um, when I was listening to Athe Ellison and, and Christine, um, mother work is also embodied, which is to say that there is this attuning that happens both to your relationships and to your external world, that you're always just paying attention to what folks need, right? Like how Christine was like, you know, I, I notice when folks are hungry, or at the Allison was like, you know, I'm not gonna spend my time on doing all these different things when I wanna focus on being really present in the moment so I can attune to what folks need, right?

Speaker 9 (01:21:50):

Um, and so I think that attuning that felt sense is something that, you know, schooling doesn't condition us towards, it actually conditions us towards the opposite of that, to not feel, to look away, to be apathetic, to be neutral, right? Um, and the other thing that, that, uh, I noticed from at the Allison and Christine's conversation is that, you know, not only do we need to attune to others, but becoming mothers and being, um, committed to our children or our creations, um, automatically makes us, uh, makes it necessary for us to also attune back to ourselves. Like, I think that's one of the biggest gifts that I, um, am grateful for towards my own kids, is that they have taught me how necessary it is to actually return to myself because I can't be the best mother to them if I'm not actually tuning into my own needs, my own capacity, my own limitations, my own wounds, and all of those things, right?

Speaker 9 (01:22:57):

Um, and so mothering is also reciprocal, um, like this, this sense of interdependence I love at Allison's, um, and Christine's conversation at the end around how, you know, giving we do give, but we also receive, right? Um, and so I think all of those things are really important to being a solid educator, to make sure that our work is reciprocal, that we give as much as we receive, that we, um, insist on being creative, in life giving and joyful, um, in our work, and that we be fiercely protective of what is important and what is sacred. And so I think Mother work and mothering can be an important site of inquiry to notice where in the project of schooling we are conditioned, um, and forced to separate parts of ourselves in order to, so-called belong or succeed in this faulty colonial project. And Mother work can also be a place of practice to really usher in the kinds of creative life-giving, life sustaining, um, and protective spaces that are so needed right now.

Speaker 4 (01:24:26):

This podcast was brought to you by the Apocalyptic Education Network and the Institute for Regenerative Futures. Learn more@apocalypticeducation.org.